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Gunnar

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 #1 
My goal is to use the Moxy monitor to steer my training. To be able to do that I have been reading on this forum and I have read every article and website I can find about training with Moxy. Still somehow I am lacking Know-how to really put it into use...

I have done a step test with 5 min steps on the bike. I do see a curve and I can do a first assumption about what it means. I am planning to do a 5-1-5 test to see if the information from that one is vastly different.
I do understand that the body is reacting differently on different occasions.

What I'm reading here in the forum is mostly that it is not so easy to give clear cut information about how to do something. It always depends on a lot of factors and at the end, it seems to be depending on subjective interpretation. I hope I am wrong on this last point though!

Could someone please help me get on with this topic. I am very interested in it, but still... if it is not possible to convert the theories to practical steps valid for training...

Do you do an assessment of the body every day before starting training to know exactly how to train to reach a certain target? Or do you use results from an earlier test and hope it will be valid on this particular day?
jschiltz

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 #2 
Gunnar,

I am a new user with Moxy as well so hopefully I can help you through my own challenges.

A great place to start would be to perform the 5-1-5 assessment and then post your excel file and perhaps a graph or two under the Case Studies category.   If you look at my post "Cyclist - First Post, First Assessment" (I think thats the name) you can see I posted for the first time about a month ago.   The experts and more experiences users on here were super helpful and helped me figure out what my limiters were.  That is the first step.

For myself I have been equally impressed by not only the knowledge of the people on this forum, but the willingness to collaborate and share information.

To answer your other question you posted that was related more to training and a 100km or 60km event - I think there are too many variables unknown to the other forum users to effectively answer your question.

If for instance you were a relatively new cyclist, new to the sport, etc - just going out and riding your bike will give you more gains than pouring through spreadsheets, analyzing data, etc.     Thats because your delivery systems and your utilization system has plenty of room to improve.

If you have been cycling for a while and maybe following a "Time Crunched Cyclist" plan, or doing Trainer Road workouts, etc for a while - then it makes sense to spend the time using the Moxy and figuring out where you can make specific improvements and what your limiters are.

Your concerns are really twofold from what I get - balancing your short term goal of riding well in the cycling event you mentioned, and then long term improvement and learning to use the Moxy.     

Hopefully this helps.  One thing to note - the forum is generally not for training advice, but more for help interpreting the data.  That being said, you can generally get the answers you want by thinking through the issue, asking questions, etc.
Gunnar

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 #3 
Thank you for the response! 

As I understand it a 5-1-5 test is able to show the limiter in a somewhat clear way. But is that not only the limiter for the 5-1-5 test? Are we sure that I would have the same limiter when I try to race 180 km?
jschiltz

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 #4 
The 5-1-5 test is a great place to start in my opinion.  From a new user persective, and ability to look at other assessments on here that were done in a similar fashion its very helpful.

To your question about a primary limiter shown during a 5-1-5 vs. 180km event....  I think that question is a little outside of my knowledge base but let me give it a whirl using myself as an example.

- for me, my primary limiter found in my first 5-1-5 was muscular strength/coordination.  this only showed up at the higher wattages during the assessment once i started to get tired.
- this same limiter would show up during a 180km event, but much much later because the average wattage in an event that long would be much lower than the wattage it took to weed out that limiter during the 5-1-5.  so it would take some accumulated fatigue built up in the 180km to get it to show.

The primary limiter will show itself in both, but I think the 180km will bring out perhaps a secondary limiter that is not as prevalent during the 5-1-5 - something like cardiac or respiratory.

The overall engine is likely the best place to put your training effort.  So once you do a 5-1-5 assessment and post it, I would also recommend putting the moxy on a non-involved musle like deltoid and then do some sort of 5-10 minute step assessment and look at the trends you see there.... that will tell you more about what you need to work on for your event most likely.
sebo2000

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 #5 
As I understand it a 5-1-5 test is able to show the limiter in a somewhat clear way. But is that not only the limiter for the 5-1-5 test? Are we sure that I would have the same limiter when I try to race 180 km?

I think limiter is a limiter, it is the weakest link in your body, it will give up first,then you work with compensators.

My real world example:
my 5-1-5 90 min assessment which ended up at 360W I believe, showed my 10 seconds sprint limiter and that is in above 1000W range.

I admit, I had reservations myself. Ok I can't sprint fast enough at the end of a race or crit, how 5-1-5 assessment will help me find out why I can't sprint when we do not sprint in 5-1-5? How 5min intervals can show me why I can't sprint.... Doesn't make sense at all...  

My approach was: I'm doing what "makes sense" for 6 months without any results, screw it, I will do what "doesn't make sense" and see what happens. The lights light up... 




Gunnar

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 #6 
I've read somewhere here on the forum that to find the limiter for running it is important to do a 5-1-5 test by running and not by cycling. Cycling will find the limiter for cycling.

Couldn't it be that a 180 km race demands different abilities than a shorter race of e.g. 20 km. Wouldn't then the limiter be different?

Or am I totally wrong in my thinking?
sebo2000

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 #7 
I've read somewhere here on the forum that to find the limiter for running it is important to do a 5-1-5 test by running and not by cycling. Cycling will find the limiter for cycling.

Couldn't it be that a 180 km race demands different abilities than a shorter race of e.g. 20 km. Wouldn't then the limiter be different?

Or am I totally wrong in my thinking?


There is no wrong and right.
Running is different sport all together, different muscle groups are used etc. different position, different efficiency.

I can only answer with example:

If your limiter is respiratory system due to bad bike fit, you  will only find it while on the bike, but if it is due to COPD it will be visible while running and cycling.

If your limiter during 180km would be reduced stroke volume after 140km (you forgot to drink), yes 5-1-5 assessment will most likely not show that, but if it is due to some other cardiac weakens it will show for sure.

5-1-5 will show some limiter or area that needs work, I'm thinking during 180km that area will most likely give up first, I can't come up with anything that would not show up in 5-1-5 but could in 180km race, besides rider induced self caused conscious/unconscious action.


bobbyjobling

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 #8 
I would do a 5-1-5 pre and post race this could show you possible limiters.
Gunnar

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 #9 
interesting. How is that working? 
bobbyjobling

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 #10 
If the limiter is the same pre and post race then that's a good indication of training direction.
If the limiter changes then you have one more area to focus on.
However 5-1-5 will not tell you if the new limiter is caused by "environmental" factors. But It is good to do 5-1-5 when feeling good and when feeling really fatigued. When fatigued you may have to tweak the 5-1-5 steps power down by 10% just to maintain the "resolution" of the trends.
juergfeldmann

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 #11 
Very nice  discussion  and  that's  what we did many years back  during a NORBA  race  pre race assessment , race  and post race assessment. We used  Physio flow. Portamon, VO2  and blood  testing.
 Here  just the  NIRS feedback. Exactly  same  steps  so  lines  are steps.
 Yellow  is tHb  thick yellow pre and post race.JPG   muscle   thin yellow    more surface skin. Blue is  HHb  and red is O2Hb

bobbyjobling

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 #12 
So each vertical lines represent the start of a load?
And 0 on y-axis is your point of reference?
+ve value indicates an increase, -ve a decrease from reference point.
bobbyjobling

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 #13 
Hmmmm.....if whilst doing a 5-1-5 post race we found out we have a new limiter it might be more related to the compensator status instead of our natural limiter.
Performing a 515 assessment when not fatigued the limiter is due to lack of ability in keeping up with the team, fatigue is a lesser problem.
During a race the compensator might have been over used and therefore it's ability to perform a post race 515 is compromised more than the limiter . Is this a reasonable line of thoughts?
But if we have the same 515 result pre-post race then ????
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