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Marcel

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 #16 
Juerg,

1. could you please briefly explain vascular compression. What is causing for the vascular compression to happen. Does one see it only during the alarm phase? Is it a bad thing and how can one train it to avoid it?

2. In the picture of the 100 mile runner training for the 24 hour race. Was this a 5/1/5 assessment? He is a endurance runner should he not have a great utilisation of the SmO2 so we should see a drop? or he is so efficient that SmO2 only drops when need be?
2131062.jpeg 

3. In this picture SmO2 drops during the 1min rest, is this the same athlete as the one above? So the only time that the muscle can utilise the Smo2 is during the 1 min rest. So does this indicate that there is a combination of a utilisation problem and some kind of compression/occlusion/vasoconstriction problem during the load? How would one train this?
2131063.jpeg

QFieldBoden

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 #17 
Mark, your observation is correct, I think what a lot of folks would like is a straightforward guide to data interpretation. I know this is a complex subject but I just get baffled when questions result in what seems to me to be a tidal wave of different graphs and data along with requests for my own data files.

To be honest I think the interpretation of this data as a cycle training tool is probably in its infancy which is why I think the best approach is to record our own data and just keep looking at it for a while until it becomes familiar to us. Your excellent work in Golden Cheetah will be a huge help with this and is much appreciated. Then, when we have some solid baselines we can make some training interventions and keep on observing and see what changes.

A major issue is that this technology simply will not be widely adopted if there are not some simple guidelines and rules which the average punter can understand and follow. I'm hoping that the stuff I am recording and the observations of this "ordinary bloke" might shed some practical light on this stuff over time, but time it will take.

I've not yet seen anything published about effective "Moxy Guided" training interventions anywhere yet.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #18 
Give me a cook book  and you will have a  Mc Donald franchise,
 Teach  them to use the Brain  and you create a chef.

"How do you analyze, what are you looking for"

Hope that makes some sense [smile]
 hmm not  sure as that is what we write    since all this years.
 SmO2    we look for  delivery limitations    or balanced  delivery and utilization    or    higher utilization than delivery.
 tHb  we look for  local or systemic  limitation in  the delivery.
 Than we combine the two  and you have the  Limiter  of the  system  and  depending on the reaction you will see who or what systems tries  to compensate.
 That's it.  I have a  small problem  on why it is  so hard  to sent  your  or  any test in  and than we  can use  your feeling your data  and your  assessment to show the simple summary up there. What limits the SmO2  reaction  and how does the tHb influences  this reaction.
  Most of the readers   most likley sit  hours  on a bike or in a gym and easy can collect the data  and than s send  and we discuss it here.
  . Or  you simply follow the  idea  above.  or  here again    short simple  and easy:

 SmO2, we look for delivery limitations, or balanced delivery and utilization ,or higher utilization than delivery.

tHb we look for local or systemic limitation in the delivery.

Than we combine the two and you have the Limiter of the system and depending on the reaction you will see who or what systems tries to compensate.
 Than  you use   MOXY or any NIRS  equipment to guide the proper  intensity so you target the limiter and or the compensator  and or both.

Than you reassess and see, whether the  goal  you have set is  achieved  and what has changed in SmO2  and tHb    reactions due to the intensity you where able to control.

It is the same you always did. you  assessed or tested  a client. You find his  limitation, you made  and still all coaches  make a training plan   with  a goal  and you than go back  and see, whether the limiter  has improved.


QFieldBoden

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Posts: 46
 #19 
You've pretty much confirmed where I think things are at and how I plan to move forward, essentially gather data over time, observe it, make changes and observe again. Find what brings about a positive change and repeat :-)

In terms of submitting training and testing data I think that's pretty much a personal decision, some people fire it off all over the place and some prefer not to. I guess the problem is that once data is out of your own hands you then have no control over where it ends up or what it gets used for.

Plenty of folks around in the cycling game who would never dream of posting workout data, let alone testing data! There's also the question of data ownership in terms of publication, teaching, seminars etc. I've posted plenty of stuff in the past only to learn that it's subsequent use has not quite been what I'd had in mind!
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #20 
Mark here  the other summary  I    showed    on I think same place here.
 This drop gives you some indication of utilization due to release of O2 from myoglobin ( O2 dissociation curve )
2. After this initial drop we have an increase in SmO2 due too higher delivery than utilization. ( This only will be seen if you do not warm up and if you have a long enough step ( Hard to see in a classical VO2 test with three minutes steps.
3. SmO2 will reach an individual max level and stay there as a sign of either fully loaded Hb and MB and still more delivery than utilization or it may be flat as we reach a balance in delivery and utilization. Than we will see a drop in SmO2 due to higher utilization than delivery. That's; it. To be sure in what situation we really are we will have to get rid of muscle activity for a while to see how delivery still delivers or can't deliver when there is no usage off O2 from working muscles.

tHb reaction.
1. first drop due to muscle compression,
2. Increase if CO overrules with blood pressure the muscular compression.
3. reaches a balance when CO and muscle compression are balanced, will drop if compression local or systematic vasoconstriction will increase due to respiratory metaboreflex for example. It can on the other side increase due to venous occlusion . But we easy can differentiate between increase due to occlusion or due to vasodilatation. Easy as you sad. Vasodilatation will increase tHb in the rest above base line tHb and if it was an occlusion tHb will initially drop before going up/ occlusion outflow.
If it is a respiratory limitation due to muscle weakness you have a right shift of O2 disscurve and therefore a drop in SmO2 and less reload in the rest but you have a higher than baseline tHb due to CO2 reaction. If it is a metaboreflex than you have a add on to muscle compression and a trend towards a venous occlusion and at rest you will have a venous occlusion outflow first but a normal SmO2 or often normal.
If you have a muscular limitation you have venous occlusion together with a " hidden" vasodilatation due to CO2 levels and when you let go no occlusion out flow but tHb overshoot and low SmO2.
When you have cardiac limitation you can see that on tHb reactions often combined with venous occlusion ( less preload ) so you have a drop in SV or when in top athletes you have the " sleeping Giant you have the reaction by " stecher" and a drop in tHb at rest due to BP correction but with a lag time due to systemic reaction of 15-30 seconds.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #21 
Thanks  for the great  and critical feed-backs.
 I think  the suggestions  from the different groups  are well taken  and yes  we look forward  to the different options people may start to use MOXY in the   cycling community.
 Will be  great to see, the development of this information's  and  data collections.
 The GC    group  is doing a really great job  and  they  seem to have already  a lot of  directions ready to go. They already    show  :
 There are lots of interesting physiological indicators and measures that we can derive using the right algorithms and test protocols - and we're going to add them across all the views; find power at LT1 and LT2, track arterial and venous blood flow, track mitochondria capacity, track saturation recovery / half-life as a function of intensity
 
This is great  to see and   we look forward  to have  the  simple  and great feedback on this markers .
 As more  groups   showing   the way they like to use  NIRS  as more  options  will be  developed  and   used in practical applications.
This    development we see in sports like ice hockey, where   coaches  can see, how long an athlete  should or can  stay on the ice  and how long he may be off  and or whether the    load he did  even influenced  his systemic  reaction.
 The  RIP assessment  Brian  has now  further developed  is a  great example on the   options we  can produce  with MOXY  /NIRS. They have some great international exchange  as well with  Europe (  Jiri Dostal  in Prag )
 Same is taking place in sports like  downhill skiing  or  figure skating / swimming   and   strength training. So great  discussion  good  momentum  and great decisions.
 Thanks.
 I will nevertheless show  a piractical example   of a 5/1/5  Roger did   during the ANT +  seminar  with DC rainmaker  and   discuss  on where we   think his limitation  may be at the current time. We  are not sure yet whether we  do it on   his blog  or here  but perhaps  on both places.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #22 
Marcel,
 thanks  again as usual  for your great  observation  and it shows you are getting used on  the NIRS  in your sport.
 Here short but will be back.
 1. The  100 miler   was not a 5/1/5  it was as you can see a long run   ( so good observation )  and if you look at the end there  is a small unexpected  change, that's'  when  he got  some  specific  problems  with  his legs  an that's what we  tried  to address.
 I f I am allowed  I will show a 5/1/5    form him as well but the  interesting part is  as you  mentioned the very high SmO2  levels  and the fact, that he  has some major  problem to actually desaturate..
  The second  Portamon  example with the dropping of TSI %  during rest  is a  cardiac patient  and  it is a great example  how we  can understand limiters    and reactions, when we actually know them ahead.
 This  was one of our initial  tasks   when we started  with Physio flow and Portamon. Using the e  equipment  and the different test ideas on people we  actually knew  the limitation so no guessing there,  so we  had the picture  developed  due to the fact, that we had   all the information on what system   would be the limiter.
 So cardiac  patients, COPD   or  patients  with lungs problems.
 or people with specific  muscular problems  like Rhabdomyelosis  or    MS  ( nerve  conducting problems  )  or ALS or    other  not very nice situations. 
 I will be back late on the  vasoconstriction information  and will sent you some ideas on your mail ( give me your email  ) on  ideas on how  to train  if that is a  limiter.
 We  do not like to    have cook books  here so people  would go and copy a  training  idea and it does  not work as we do not know the full ideas. So  give me a mail with exactly  where you think the vaoconstriction  may  be coming   from and I give you  some ideas on how  you use MOXY and train  to overcome this  part . Cheers Juerg
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #23 
Marcel ,
 here your first part of your  question:
 1. could you please briefly explain vascular compression. What is causing for the vascular compression to happen. Does one see it only during the alarm phase? Is it a bad thing and how can one train it to avoid it?

Come back if this does not make sense.
a)  at rest your  muscle has a resting tension  and your blood vessels  will have a  certain diameter  according  to the resting   tension ( resting SEMG  can show you the tension)
. The  tension is often controlled by  the needed  blood pressure in your  brain as well. Some may use   when they use a physio flow the SVR ( systemic  vascular resistance)
 Now  when you start  any activity  you will increase  the muscular contraction ( recruitment more  units  and as  such the  pressure  on the blood vessels will increase.
. Therefor  the  diameter  will drop over the are, where your muscle compress the blood vessels.
  This is a compression.  When we do an  occlusion test than we  are  restricting the blood flow  from  a  distance  to the  MOXY  placement  so  no compression reactions there.  Now   not to make if  complicated but  you can have a  compression of  blood vessels  due to a  muscular activity.  (That's what you see  every time  in a 5/1/5  when you restart  after the one  minute break.
  but you can have it during a race   like your biathlon race  , when ever you  change to  higher intensity.
 But  you as well can have a compression  form an outside  source  like compression stockings  or  positioning like in a downhill tuck position  or  in ice hockey when they sit on the bench in a  not optimal position or in cycling    when you have  one leg  at 6  an the other at 12.00 position,. This is  easy to observe  as you are on the bike  and look at  tHb  left and right  by simply   changing  from 6  to  12  and back.
.
 The muscular compression   is  high   when you start but   as soon you increase CO  ( cardiac out put ) you  have  a counter balance  with   the pressure  from the blood and what ever is  stronger will   show the reaction on tHb . So in a  NOT warm up situation as we discuss this  reaction can help us  to see a potential  trend on cardiac  out put strength versus muscular  compression. . As  soon  CO goes up   we may see an increase in  tHb as  the    out put overrules the muscular   compression.  As  higher we see an overshoot in tHb  as  higher the chance  of an increase in the vascular reaction    under the moxy. Hope this makes sense.
Marcel

Development Team Member
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Posts: 54
 #24 
Juerg thank you so much, your answer to the compression makes perfect sense. Back to the graph from the cardiac patient with the drop of SmO2 during the rest, do you have the tHb graph to show with the Smo2? More questions to come.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #25 
Marcel second part .
 Not  easy  to explain and please come back.
 There  are some situations, where we will see this reactions.
a) cardiac problem(  key word  Ductus Botally  not optimal  closed   )
b)  respiration EIAH ( exercise induced  arterial hypoxia  often seen in   sports like cross country skiing and cycling)
c) the result of the way some NIRS  calculate  the  TSI %  or SmO2  %.
   Here the picture an what do you look for when you try to come to an interpretation and or conlusion
muns  expl.jpg  .

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #26 
Marcel
now  as you see what compression means you can see  why we look at the start  without  warming up at the compression trend.
 In simple terms again.
 The start of  an assessment  shows us  much better the  local reactions  than without  " warming up "    and in the later stage of the assessment  we look more systemic reactions.
 That is  why  it may be so critical to be able to " warm up " in some sports  till to the moment  where we actually start and not  a  huge time between  warm up  and staging  an the race.
This is one of the problems in MTB  ( mountain bike ) , where   they often  get called to the start  and than still stand around till  all is set up.
 They did  that as well in international marathons, till the runner  complained  and now they can  jog  and run in front of the   thousands  of   runners  till the start   goes s on.
 In the past  it was just feeling . Now we know the athletes  where right as we  can show the reaction, when we  have a compression without  sufficient    CO  at the start  and  that it may take time    to counter balance.

 Why. because we do not have yet  delivery inferring with  local reactions. So compression is  compression  and not compression plus  Cardiac out put counter balance... At the start we look more local trends  and hints for limitation.  and at the end of an assessment , where we  may   already be above limiters ability and compensators  kicked in somewhere  we  have more information on systemic reactions.

We started   about  20  - years ago to use  wind trainer  or stationary trainers in Canada  cup with   some of the athletes I coached  than at the time  and we where not allowed  to do this so athletes  had  to go to the call on the start  and sometimes  stand there  for  ever  till all   lined up. Actually warming up on a trainer was looked upon  as a  really strange idea  and we  produced  some  super small rollers  so we could take them into the staging area  but  that  got  banned as well.. Can you imagine  today not having a roller in a MTB  race or  before a TT  ??
 I will search in my mess for an example    where  you than can  easy see  start reaction      locally and   end  situation in an assessment  systemically.
 Now this is true as well in a race situation, when we look at  reactions  of  MOXY.
.
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