Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #1 
Nirs  /Moxy may give to many athletes and coaches a very different understanding on body feeling and why we  can or  ca not move anymore.
There are many open questions, but there are fro sure some clear open challenges to existing believes and ideas.
 1. MOXY allows you a live information on how you take O2 during an activity.
What you will see is, that no matter how hard you go you most likley will have  at the start  still O2 as a part of the ATP production. You can see that in an post where we show MOXY info.
 Now what we are working on is the question, what and how  do we regulate or manipulate the drop in SmO2. ( why  can we see in some athletes a drop in SmO2  down to 20 and lower and in some  only down to 50 .
The other question than arises, whether we can manipulate in an athlete with a drop  only to 50   in an easy way drop down to 20. This would increase the time he can use as well O2  during an intense load.
. The next Question was, why do we see in some athletes a drop in SmO2 till to the end of the load ( where he gives up ) and in other athletes we have a d drop  followed by a plateau of SmO2 till he gives up.
 So what we did over the last few years is to collect  situation of both of the above and than see, whether we can produce this two pictures in the lab artificially by manipulating  certain physiological reactions.
 Here the current stand.
 The white blue red picture is the  Lab result where we manipulated a drop and end of load and a plateau before load was finished.
 This gave us the answer, what creates what some3 people call anaerobic power. meaning to be able to go long with out further involvement of O2.  versus " aerobic power, where we where able to extract more O2. Optimal is to have a combination of aerobic power low SmO2 and a long stages of anaerobic power SmO2 plateau with loosing performance.
 By testing now hundreds of Athletes we will have a confirmation on what we see in  a limited case study of perhaps 50 cases only over a span off 2 - 3 years.
 Here a first glimpse on how this looks with MOXY testing with our protocol and  we have pretty good idea now what creates what kind of a picture and how we can improve this situation. Have fun to study this over the weekend.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
I got a very interesting respond to my last post.
 This regular reader from a  great university writes, that my case study would suggest, that the accumulation of H + and as such the increase in CO2 may inhibit further muscle contractions.
 As a  point to point discussion he added some great papers and here a small part of it.
 :
 

Acidosis and Fatigue

As mentioned earlier, there has been substantial research to show that an increase concentration of hydrogen ions and a decrease in pH (increase in acidity) within muscle or plasma, causes fatigue. Additionally, induced acidosis can impair muscle contractility even in non-fatigued humans and several mechanisms to explain such effects have been provided.

Yet in the last 10 years a number of high profile papers have challenged even this most basic assumption of fatigue. A 2006 review of these by Cairns (18) suggests that experiments on isolated muscle show that acidosis has little detrimental effect or may even improve muscle performance during high-intensity exercise.

In place of acidosis it may be inorganic phosphate that is major cause of muscle fatigue (20). Recall that an inorganic phosphate is produced during the breakdown of ATP to ADP. However, there are several limitations regarding this phosphate hypothesis (21). Another proposal for a major contributor to fatigue, rather than acidosis, is the accumulation of potassium ions in muscle interstitium (22,23,24).

Contrary to this new research (which is by no means definitive) is the argument that if acidosis plays no role in fatigue then it is surprising that alkalosis (through sodium bicarbonate consumption for example) can improve exercise performance in events lasting 1-10 minutes. To reconcile this, Cairns (18) hypothesizes that while acidosis has little detrimental effect or may even improve muscle performance in isolated muscle, severe blood plasma acidosis may impair performance by causing a reduced central nervous system drive to muscle.

Here the interesting part :
 Yet in the last 10 years a number of high profile papers have challenged even this most basic assumption of fatigue. A 2006 review of these by Cairns (18) suggests that experiments on isolated muscle show that acidosis has little detrimental effect or may even improve muscle performance during high-intensity exercise.
 Now this is, where our idea fundamentally difference from the current trend in exercise physiology and where  T. N made  a great speech a few years back, when comparing a  big  rock on a gas pedal of a formula one car and a human foot on a gas pedal of a formula one car and both cars race towards a sharp curve  down the road. What would happen.
.  So in this case an isolated  muscle study looses completely the ability to understand potential interactions and feedback loops in the whole idea of ECGM and  protective reactions to survive .  So  H + may in fact react very different in an isolated muscle than when in connection with the CG and some possible feed backs to this are to avoid further splitting of ATP. ( . idea on ATP protection and reducing the need of ATP..
 Summary . Indeed we have some initial trend information, that the hypoxia section in some test is much longer and better seen in people  who train since years their respiratory system,
 Possible direction to look into this cases are the ability of a respiratory system to  help in the buffering of a high H + situation.
 Imagine an athelete  who can move 120 - 130 liter VE maximal in a test and an athlete who can move above and beyond 300 L VE with out having to  eel too stresses.
 problems here. In a discussion a while back I got corrected from an great person, that it is impossible or  very rare to move  above and beyond 150 l VE. This is true in most of the tests we see, but  we have many  local athletes as well as international results, showing , that with a proper respiratory endurance  training  athletes  can easy learn to move comfortable 200 250 liter over a longer time with out distress.
 So the  150 L Ve in the literature may have to be reviewed as  many other fixed ideas out there.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Here an additional part of the discussion.
 :
 

Lactic Acidosis

So this unfavourable acidosis is the result of an increased concentration or accumulation of hydrogen ions. It may seem logical to conclude then, that any increase in production of lactic acid and hence lactate is detrimental as it will increase the production of hydrogen ions.

However, accumulation is the key term here as an increased production of hydrogen ions (due to an increase production of lactic acid) will have no detrimental effect if clearance is just as fast. In fact Robergs et al. (19) takes it a step further

They suggest that lactate production (especially if accompanied by a high capacity for lactate removal) may be more likely to delay the onset of acidosis (19, 25). The reasons for this, amongst others, are that lactate serves to consume hydrogen ions and allows the transport of hydrogen ions from the cell. Similarly, they maintain, there is a wealth of research evidence to show that acidosis is caused by reactions other than lactate production (19).

Rogers et al. do conclude however, that increased lactate concentration, although not causative, coincides with cellular acidosis and remains a good indirect marker for the onset of fatigue.

 

The interesting apart is the part of  lactate to help to move H + out of the cell an therefor trying to keep and acceptable homeostasis intracellular to  the H + situation.
 H + as the part , who blocks further  reactions between  Ca and Mg  for the splitting of ATP.
 Now  what is going on with this increase in H + in the blood. How can it be buffered.
 Think back on the discussion of RQ = RER and the problem, that RER or RQ  above 1.0 indicates a for sure   improvement;. of the  RER RQ due to additional involvement of CO2 increase due to H + buffer.
 Now take 150 L VE and take an ice hockey player who can move above 300 L VE. Our latest testing   with a NHL prospect shows a 3 liter bag  so 3. 5l TV  and 90 respiration rate per minute. You calculate how much VE and therefor CO2 he can remove , when coming from the ice or when having a short break  during his ice time.

 What has this to do with MOXY.
 Our current numbers of test indicate a trend towards the ability to see a hypoxia during a load and a faster ROI ( re oxygenation ) after a load  with athletes we test, who work since  a few years on the respiration.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 
Got a nice fast feedback. Summary . You are biased  as you work with MOXY.
 Answer:
 Absolutely true, that's why we need critical questions from everybody not just some feed backs with no real  content.
 Here my short answer to this 

A brief review of the use of near infrared spectroscopy with particular interest in resistance exercise.

Source

Departmento de Educação Física, Universidade Gama Filho, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

Abstract

There is growing interest in resistance training, but many aspects related to this type of exercise are still not fully understood. Performance varies substantially depending on how resistance training variables are manipulated. Fatigue is a complex phenomenon usually attributed to central (neuronal) and/or peripheral (muscular) origin. Cerebral oxygenation may be associated with the decision to stop exercise, and muscle oxygenation may be related to resistance training responses. Near infrared spectroscopy (NIRS) is a non-invasive optical technique used to monitor cerebral and muscle oxygenation levels. The purpose of this review is to briefly describe the NIRS technique, validation and reliability, and its application in resistance exercise. NIRS-measured oxygenation in cerebral tissue has been validated against magnetic resonance imaging during motor tasks. In muscle tissue, NIRS-measured oxygenation was shown to be highly related to venous oxygen saturation and muscle oxidative rate was closely related to phosphocreatine resynthesis, measured by (31)P-magnetic resonance spectroscopy after exercise. The test-retest reliability of cerebral and muscle NIRS measurements have been established under a variety of experimental conditions, including static and dynamic exercise. Although NIRS has been used extensively to evaluate muscle oxygenation levels during aerobic exercise, only four studies have used this technique to examine these changes during typical resistance training exercises. Muscle oxygenation was influenced by different resistance exercise protocols depending on the load or duration of exercise, the number of sets and the muscle being monitored. NIRS is a promising, non-invasive technique that can be used to evaluate cerebral and muscle oxygenation levels simultaneously during exercise, thereby improving our understanding of the mechanisms influencing performance and fatigue

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
here some otehr  older BIAS papers :
 :
Congest Heart Fail. 1999 May-Jun;5(3):116-119.

Monitoring skeletal muscle oxygenation during exercise by near infrared spectroscopy in chronic heart failure.

Source

Servizio di Cardiologia Riabilitativa, Istituto Lancisi, Ancona, Italy.

Abstract

Patients with chronic heart failure (HF) have a reduced skeletal muscle blood flow which can in part explain reduced exercise tolerance and increased ventilation. All the techniques commonly employed to measure skeletal muscle blood flow have limitations that reduce their accuracy and clinical application. Near infrared spectroscopy (NIRS) is a noninvasive, inexpensive, and reproducible technique able to monitor muscle oxygenation both at rest and during exercise, providing information about tissue perfusion. The principle of NIRS is based on the observation that the light absorption characteristics of hemoglobin (Hb) and myoglobin (Mb) in the near infrared region (700-1000 nm) change depending on their relative saturations. In humans, NIRS has been employed to monitor skeletal muscle oxygenation during exercise and/or after cuff-induced limb ischemia in normal subjects as well as patients with chronic HF. Patients with chronic HF have a reduced Hb/Mb oxygenation at any matched work rate and a more rapid deoxygenation above the anaerobic threshold than normal subjects. More recently, NIRS has been used to determine the kinetics of muscle oxygenation in recovery after constant work rate exercise, providing evidence of an inverse relation with cardiac function as assessed by peak oxygen uptake. In conclusion, NIRS appears to be a new promising noninvasive technique for studying muscle oxygenation in a variety of experimental models. (c)1999 by CHF, Inc.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #6 
and here one from  far back , when we started to think ECGM but had not all the tools yet.
 This is so that it can be accepted on this side of the big water from the USA.
 

Send to:

 
G Ital Cardiol. 1995 Jun;25(6):715-24.

Near infrared spectroscopy and changes in skeletal muscle oxygenation during incremental exercise in chronic heart failure: a comparison with healthy subjects.

Source

Department of Medicine, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, Torrance, USA.

Abstract

Near infrared spectroscopy (NIRS) is a noninvasive technique of monitoring tissue oxygen saturation by detecting changes in tissue absorbance of two wavelengths (850 and 760 nm) reflecting the relative oxygenation of hemoglobin and myoglobin. Aim of the present study was to determine whether changes in skeletal muscle oxygen saturation during incremental exercise detected by NIRS can reflect an impared oxygen delivery and an early onset of anaerobic metabolism in patients with chronic heart failure (CHF). We studied 19 subjects (mean age 43 +/- 16 years). Seven patients had a history of CHF with a diagnosis of ischemic cardiomyopathy (Group A) and 12 were healthy sedentary (Group B). All patients had a history of dyspnea on exertion (NY-HA II), peripheral edema, pulmonary rales and cardiac gallop sounds over the last 6 months. They were in sinus rhythm and stable clinical condition in the last 3 months. They were well matched regarding age, sex and body surface area. All subjects performed an incremental work rate test in a ramp pattern on a upright cycle ergometer until volitional fatigue. Gas exchange was measured breath by breath with a metabolic chart. Muscle oxygenation was determined, transcutaneously, during the exercise test over the vastus lateralis muscle with NIRS. At peak exercise, work rate, VO2, anaerobic threshold (LAT), heart rate and systolic blood pressure were significantly lower in Group A compared to Group B (92 +/- 28 vs 232 +/- 17 watts; 14 +/- 2 vs 21 +/- 2 ml/kg/min; 868 +/- 225 vs 1317 +/- 354 ml/min; 149 +/- 7 vs 172 +/- 18 b/min; 145 +/- 18 vs 195 +/- 21 mm Hg, respectively; p < 0.0001 for all). In both groups, as work rate increased, tissue oxygenation initially either remained constant near resting levels or decreased. In both groups, muscle oxygenation decreased more steeply near the work rate where lactic acidosis (LAT) was detected. However, patients with CHF had an earlier acceleration in muscle deoxygenation compared to the other group, indicating a premature onset of anaerobic metabolism. Moreover, Group A had a flatter increase in both heart rate and systolic blood pressure and a steeper slope of oxygenation profile at all matched workloads compared to normals (Group A: -0.13 +/- 0.03 ml/min; Group B: -0.06 +/- 0.015 ml/min; p < 0.0001). The LAT correlated with the work rate at which the rate of tissue O2 desaturation accelerated (r = 0.94; p < 0.0001).(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #7 
and here one  from Japan  to show how international this is and why we soon will see sport assessments and testing  with MOXY all over the world as it is now affordable for everybody even for the athlete eon the road. 
Rinsho Byori. 1998 Jan;46(1):33-42.

[Objective assessment of subjective symptom in chronic heart failure].

[Article in Japanese]

Source

Department of Cardiology, Kanazawa Medical University, Ishikawa.

Abstract

Objective assessment of subjective symptoms in patients with chronic heart disease (CHF) is useful not only in determining severity and prognosis, but also in evaluating the effects of therapy. Recently anaerobic threshold (AT) was introduced as an objective index for functional capacity. We began by evaluating the AT for assessing functional capacity in patients with CHF, using the cardiopulmonary exercise test. In this study, patients with CHF tended to show low values of VO2 at AT. Furthermore, VO2 at AT was decreased in accordance with the increasing severity of the NYHA classification. These results indicate that VO2 at AT can be used as an objective and reliable index for evaluating the functional capacity in patients with CHF. Decreased functional capacity is a major clinical problem in patients with CHF and is associated with skeletal muscle fatigue and/or dyspnea. Secondly, we observed the oxygenation of both working skeletal and respiratory muscles during exercise, using near-infrared spectroscopy to study the factors contributing to exercise limitation of CHF. In this study, the oxygenation profile of exercising skeletal muscle was similar to that of respiratory muscle, but the former showed anaerobic metabolism at an earlier stage of exercise than the latter. In patients with CHF this phenomenon was more prominent than that in normal subjects. These results indicate that near-infrared spectroscopy might be useful in objective assessment of subjective symptoms, namely skeletal muscle fatigue and dyspnea, in patients with CHF.

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter - Quick-counter.net