Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
bcoddens

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 26
 #1 
Hi Friends,

In attached CSV you can find data from a BSX insight Gen2 on a ride of about 50 km.  How can I use this data to get new insights ?  I can see that when I control my breathing my sm02 gets up.

 
Attached Files
csv Moxy.csv (730.83 KB, 16 views)

juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #2 
will be fun to  look at  later  today hopefully. Here a short question.

 I can see that when I control my breathing my sm02 gets up.  

What  do you mean with  control breathing.

c)  did you  reduce  RF  and increased TV
d)  did you  reduce  RF  and maintained TV
e)  did you  reduce  RF  and decreased TV

f) did you  maintained RF  and reduced  TV
g) did you  maintained RF  and increased  TV

h) did you increased RF  and reduced TV
I) did you increased RF  and increased TV
J) did you increased RF  and maintained TV


bcoddens

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 26
 #3 
Hi Juerg,

Can you explain the terms that you are using ?
I mean with "control my breathing" by focussing on exhaling and inhaling more deeply.
When I do this I can see my smO2 rising.
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #4 
Sorry  bad information  for my question   usual. RF  stands  for respiratory frequency.
It is  ho many times  you breath per minute  similar  to HR ( heart rate )  which is ho many times  your  heart beats per  minute.
 TV stands  of tidal  volume  and it is measure in ml  or  L  per breath. It is similar  to SV  ( stroke volume )  which is  the amount  of blood  your   heart  pumps  per   one beat  in ml  So   example. You breath 30  x  per min  and you have a  TV  of  2 l  you have a VE  for 60 l / min For  CO ( cardiac out put   example. 100  HR  100ml SV  your CO is  ???  in  L/min.

Will as promised  look at the   ts  and see , whether we  can pick  up  he  change in respiration   and   the reaction in SmO2  and  tHb.
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #5 
Okay here the promised  thoughts on your 50 km ride. I have no real info on your   training goal  or your   physiological  stimulation idea.
The only part we know  is that  somewhere in this ride :
I mean with "control my breathing" by focusing on exhaling and inhaling more deeply.
When I do this I can see my smO2 rising.

below  your  ride  as SmO2  and tHb  graph thb smo2  all.jpg   Green as usual SmO2  and  brown  tHb
 You can easy see , that the range of  your SmO2  was  really narrow 70 % +- 5. When  we  take into account  the  accepted  range of  5 %  for  really fan of  IRS  and  perhaps somewhat more  for  more critical users  than  you have a very stable SmO2  value  trough out the full range  and time. The  tHb  shows a steady increase over the full 50 km indicating a  steady increase in blood  flow and possible as well what some would call a HR  drift.  From this  view   I have no chance to  find  out where the respiratory   sections  took place.
So in  some cases depending how the respiration  is  pushed  or not pushed ( Limiter or compensator )  you can see it  at the HR  as  respiration and cardiac systems  work   often  nicely together. ( see  HRV  reactions ) so let's see the HR  and SmO2   graph
coddens hr  andSmO2 all.jpg

What surprises  is the   small range  +-  5  of  SmO2  but when we look at the cardiac  HR reactions we have a huge  range of 50 +-  beats, which are not reflected in the  SmO2  reactions  nor in the tHb reactions.
 All is possible but  interesting.
 If you look HR  alone it looks  more like  a very   "up  and down"  ride  perhaps given from the    terrain. If  we have  some feedback now  here on power it  would be fun to see.
 As well if you had a section, where you remember  the  respiratory     work you tried.
 Respiration  and    deeper  inhalation and exhalation  can have a very  different   reaction on SmO2   depending on the intensity  and therefore the  ability of the respiration to react  because you  can us it as  a compensator or whether you may  be in an intensity , where the respiration itself  is  on its own limit  even before you play  with it.
Example.
 If  you  have lots  of  respiratory  reserve than  you can  do different ideas. You can go hypercapnic  to   create a  SmO2  reaction  with a  shift in  O2  disscurve to the right or you can do the opposite  and shift it to the left  with a hypocapnic  respiratory  technique.
 You can as well create a hypercapnic  situation  with   hyper pnoe.
 If  you are  at  respiratory limitation and you try to manipulate it , you will most  likely see a  O2  disscurve shift to the right. Both ideas   have  direct impact on VT ( ventilatory threshold )and a  such  to some   other interesting  ideas.


juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #6 
I like  to  add here  some   more ideas on respiration  and perhaps we can create  some discussion to a very interesting topic.
 Interesting as there are  as so often2  worlds  out there.
 There is a very  strong group out there  completely  convinced, that respiration is never a limitation. It is  based on interesting idea like the MMV  ( maximal  minute  Volume  or Ventilation) The claim is , that  we never reach maximal MV in a VO2  max  test  and a  such    respiration or ventilation is never a limitation. Than there is a group  who  claims  some   interesting  points    to show  how respiration  can be  and  in many more cases  is a  limitation.
 This is  as  you can see a very intriguing battle  and as  such  for me in rehabilitation  with people with all kind of limitation  an intriguing tool   to see, whether we  can use  respiration as a part of our  whole  physiological system to trigger  physiological responses.
 NIRS  is  one of the fun tools , where you can see whether we  may be able  to  manipulate    reactions  or whether the respiration  may force us  to have  certain reactions if   it is a LIMITER.
 This is  where the physiological training  comes in.
 You  only  can use a  system  to manipulate an other system,  if  it has  the ability  to play around  with its own ability. If  you have an intensity  which pushes  any physiological system  to its  own limitation , this system   can not  compensate or as  such can not be used  to  manipulate  or trigger a planned  stimulation.


 Example  as a very basic  idea.
 a) Sit and hold your breath  and see how long you can hold it.
b)  now  bike in a ARI intensity  based on a  5 min step test  or a 5/1/5 assessment.  and   hold your breath What has changed
c)  bike in the STEI   and hold your breath
d) bike in FEI  and hold your breath.  Look at  NIRS/MOXY reaction in   actual amplitude  but as well in  lag time of reaction.

What  does this simple  idea  and  experiment  show  you.
 Now below a  fun  experiment  I  did a few years  back  with N. Mc Lean a  student  from the   UOK  We  where running on a treadmill with a fixed speed in his ARI intensity so a veyr very  low intensity. than he  had as you can see a  task  to simply  just change the  respiration pattern based on his   stride  count.  so   he  was running 6/6  so  on 6 steps  he would breath in and   6  steps out  counting each step   and so on. The picture  will talk  for itself.
Nik rr + tHb.jpg 


juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #7 
Breathing  or  informed  ideas on   what you can do  with respiration  can open a very interesting additional option in   physiological stimulation of specific  goals. Below a  summary of  what you can +-
  stimulate  or train. The   picture  is  from a very old  PP   where I did a  presentation in Europe  for  the world  wide network  of Spiro tiger  competency centers  and   sales  people. An in depth  view  on respiration.

10 reasons.jpg


 In the  above   fun experiment  with  changes in RF  pattern   you see a  surprising  reaction when we look  NIRS/MOXY feedback.
 The  respiration itself  , when we  talk about   " abdominal respiration and  or  apical respiration can make a interesting difference on the ability of maintaining or prolonging or shortening a given fixed  performance.
 The following graph may show you  why  location  and therefor  for many  different sports posture  or  equipment  adjustment like bike fitting can have a  big influence of  performance. This is where physiological bike fitting may  be nicely used to combine  with more traditional  fitting based on  more body proportion and  aero position.

gas exchnage.jpg



The ability  to  move  air  in and out  ( O2  and CO2 )  and  do this in a  most economical  way  at the right time   for  races, but actually at the wrong time as training stimulation  for physiological training  is a intriguing task  to say the least.

resp  muscel blod  flow.jpg 

Above a beautiful work  where they used  NIRS  to show   respiratory  muscle blood flow  depending on VE ( L /min )

 Now  here  a more practical approach  below three stages  of a  client  where we  first assess his  actual respiratory quality pattern  and than look ho it changes  when he  gets  some instruction and than we  speed up to see by what  RF  he may loos e an optimal  pattern.  This is a live feedback  during a  respiratory session    where I use  an original   Zephir  bio harness belt  for    respiratory wave  form  observation. The  TV ( tidal volume  or   volume per breath     is  assessed  with a  flow meter.

andri slow.JPG

andri hypo.JPG 
andri  RRA real.JPG


Now  watch  the BPM ( breathing rate  per minute )  what can you see e which makes no sense   and is one of the weak  parts in many devices  which  looks  for respiration rate, Why  did this happened  and what  do we learn  from it.?

To  finish this section  I like to add some thoughts  which may  go ass an additional  information to  the webinar on HIIT  and blood assessments  for lactate and  pH  versus  what  really may happened in the actual working  cell. Question  of time lag between   place where all takes place  and the  limitation of some  physiological  blood sampling in a very different place. ?
 

COMPONENTS OF CELLULAR PROTON PRODUCTION, BUFFERING, AND REMOVAL

The cause of metabolic acidosis is not merely proton release, but an imbalance between the rate of proton release and the rate of proton buffering and removal. As previously shown from fundamental biochemistry, proton release occurs from glycolysis and ATP hydrolysis. However, there is not an immediate decrease in cellular pH due to the capacity and multiple components of cell proton buffering and removal  The intracellular buffering system, which includes amino acids, proteins, Pi, HCO3−, creatine phosphate (CrP) hydrolysis, and lactate production, binds or consumes H+ to protect the cell against intracellular proton accumulation. Protons are also removed from the cytosol via mitochondrial transport, sarcolemmal transport (lactate−/H+ symporters, Na+/H+ exchangers), and a bicarbonate-dependent exchanger (HCO3−/Cl−) . Such membrane exchange systems are crucial for the influence of the strong ion difference approach at understanding acid-base regulation during metabolic acidosis . However, when the rate of H+ production exceeds the rate or the capacity to buffer or remove protons from skeletal muscle, metabolic acidosis ensues. It is important to note that lactate production acts as both a buffering system, by consuming H+, and a proton remover, by transporting H+ across the sarcolemma, to protect the cell against metabolic acidosis.

Once it is in the blood we  have one  great ability  to  get rid  of H + .

Respiration/Expiration over CO2.

buffer H =.jpg 

 

 











ryinc

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 369
 #8 
Jeurg this interesting but i dont understand most of it.

With the runner, i assume this shows that as breathing becomes faster, there is build up of CO2, shift diss curve right, decreased affinity. Why is there the sudden thb drop at about 3/3?

I dont understand the table in reference to bike fitting, what the VE graph is showing or the example after. Please can you explain these again? (Sorry)
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #9 
Thanks    good  points  bad explanation  from my side  so try in a different way  but gain come back.
 Let's start with the graph  for bike fitting. When we  talk  abdominal respiration we often mean using the diaphragm optimal.   when we talk  apex  or apical  breathing than that means  that  we see a big lift in the thorax  and even  muscle in your neck like the famous  sterno cleidomatsteoideus.
 Now there are primary  real inspiration muscles  and than we have some nice guys  which help    when in panic  or desperate , the latter is one of them.
 Now a big  part of the 24  daily   respiration is  done  with  the diaphragm   as  an inspiration and  expiration really is passive. So where very  we have the highest O2  concentration in the lungs  we seem to stimulate  the  blood vessels  to gather around this alveoly. Under healthy conditions , this is in the  left and right lower lobe of your lungs  and we have the best  gas exchange there.. One of the reason  why  very overweight people  have a problem at night is, that the  abdominal weight   ( pressure ) i s   high , that  the  diaphragm  has not enough strength  to  move  all of that  and they start  to breath  a much faster and more apical  way  and  real over breath  with little CO2  retention and than   are so call CRHS ( chronic respiratory  hypocapnic  syndrome )  with not  enough CO2   and therefor reduction in O2  release  and   all what comes  with it.

 Now in an extreme aero position  with  forearms very close  due to better aero  values  you  start to compromise  your  costovertebral joint motion  and as  such the  ability  to actually use  the diaphragm optimal  for   respiration. This than shifts  the air movement or  exchange to your upper    lungs area  with much less options  for O2  in and CO2  out. You add additional  muscle into the  heavy respiration, which actually should   control your    handle bar  for sure in MTB.
 The often than  reduce  ability  to  actually move  a big enough  Ve  needed  for the  CO2  ( H + ) you produce  will create  2 options  where  this one here I  explain is more common  EIAH ( exercise  induced arterial hyopxia)   to  test  this  out can look  your finger pulse oxymeter. SpO2  which can drop in some cases   very low  to 92 +-  %. The official explanation ( and a many  readers know we seem to have a   "grunt  " with official )  is  that the speed of the blood moving through the lungs  so that the   contact  time in the  lungs  and  blood vessels is to  short to actually  load properly  is he reasons of  EIAH. So we did  a usual  some house   playing around. creating very high  HR  and very  high RF  and   in some case   SpO2  would drop  but not always. in  fact  sometimes  if would go up  ( Why / )

 So  a nice example, when   some studies  found this  to review  the  type of  people they tested.
 What we  had all the  time  as a low SpO2   was, when we create a  retention of CO    and this  you can do in all different ways.
The key is  to increase  the  space, where you  collect  CO  and where you  have  some limitation in exchange of CO2  and  O2  which happens in  an extreme aero position.  You can not get  rid of  CO2  optimal (  and have problem to  get O2  in )  and   you go back to the O2  disscurve. Now in  short races  this may be no issue  as  aero is  much more important than the  O2  CO2  exchange.
 But in long time trials  it may be  very crucial. Thee is a group. Balance point racing  who is  doing top class  bike fitting  since a long time  with physiological  factors including in their  set up as well as  the bike guru  we have once in a while on here.


 To the sudden drop in tHb. There are  again different options.
 Now in his case we had a physio  flow on so  we had  the answer immediately.
 He drop  severely the SV   but did not increase  that great the  HR  so  his  CO  dropped  and he  simply  create an artificial  cardiac limitation   . Now in the fist moment    that sounds  strange.
  Would he not  simply to protect  all  reduce  muscle   motor units. 
Yes he  wound if  he could if guided  by he  natural   protection system. BUT he is a  HUMAN
 Now   see whether you can follow  me.
 Step test or tests we do are  really  " brainless"
 meaning we do not let  he natural  brain function   dictate  the outcome. The outcome  would have been in the field   that he simply  would have slowed  down   to be still in a balance. The treadmill and his human spirit to finish  of  the  test   did not allowed this reaction and he  fight ed  by  trying to breath like crazy one by one which he did  and  moved a lot  of  air but actually still not enough.. So  he overloaded his respiration with a lot of  work. Created a metaboreflex  and   as a  result a vasoconstriction  of his  blood vessels to avoid  further  O2 ( blood ) to his loco motor  muscles as he  started  to  limited pO2 in his vital systems  like respiration and cardiac system.

 The protection of  vital systems overrules  in most  cases  and lucky for us  the  ability to extract more  O2  due to the CO   retention he had as well.
 This is another  example where we have to look   more than just CO2.
 This  situation , forced  brainless  testing  is a controversial  discussion and  we have   studies  confirming it  an some as usual not. Unfortunate  I could not find one single study  yet  ,  when they rejected the idea  ever took  time  or  money  to actually look at  pO2 in the brain  with NIRS  and as well used  cardiac hemodynamic   equipment. They all still are  fixed on  some classical data collection. ( Sorry  Per Lundstrome) exceptions as usual  as Red Bull did some amazing  research  with brain NIRS control and  much much more.

 The point in  fixed assessment   we do as well  you   can NOT  see a  cardiac limitation if  you do a simple  ongoing non stop step test as the  load is forced upon the client  and his  brain really can not make  a  natural decision as it is the clients  fight  between  shall I go or  quite.  That is another reason why we have a 5/1/5  as the  rest period  can show a cardiac  limitation limitation  
 How .  Or    the  non priority muscle  shifts  blood  but only  if  we  reach a  cardiac  limitation and we have a client  who  has  the  vessels volume and the mitochondria density  that this  is a risk  or CO  and therefor  for BP.  Marshall's   Sleeping giant  and  we can  go back far back   in the midst of the 17  century  to have people recognizing this,.

 By the  way  we had  from somebody  a nice  study  done in here  with Kenya  runners , who actually exactly  had  this brainless idea  as a  subject  and  to  show how it works. Have to   search in the messy forum but  Roger may  remember sixths  other wise I will find it somewhere.
Andrew

Study Participant
Registered:
Posts: 45
 #10 
Juerg, thank you for the nice mention about using vo2 and respiratory data with the bike fitting that Luke does at Balance Point Racing. We are hoping our new Vo2 Master will help with these types of discussions, and help athletes and coaches understand the respiratory system better, having access to both live data, and easy to interpret graphs at the end of training sessions. When the focus is to see how THb and smO2 change in response to breathing interventions, we feel our new wireless and portable vo2 Master will help to understand exactly what respiratory intervention lead to the observed changes.
Check it out...
http://www.vo2master.com
Ruud_G

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 279
 #11 
I have seen that site. For weeks there we about 88 available for a reduced price. Then from one day to the other the reduced price programm was gone. What happened
Andrew

Study Participant
Registered:
Posts: 45
 #12 
I am sorry for the confusion on the pricing , and the special discount. For business and financial reasons, we were unable to continue to sell the units at the marked price reductions. As you noted, we did sell 12 units at a very low price, and are now taking orders from interested coaches who would like to be part of our beta testing program, which allows those with knowledge and experience in vo2 testing, or those who wish to incorporate it into their training or coaching business, to have access to an early proto-type, which will be replaced with a production grade unit when they become available. The price is higher because of the added cost of producing small batches by hand, before we can afford to create a large number of units through an injection mooring process. I apologize for any confusion the changing prices may have caused.
Ruud_G

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 279
 #13 
OK tnx Andrew for your explanation!
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter - Quick-counter.net