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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #1 
We had one topic for a closer look from some great feed backs out of Finland.
Now on this topic,we will have a closer look from some feedback out of South Africa.
I like to use the great questions we have as a perfect example on where we all struggle , when  looking more critically at Zoning and real physiological individual training ideas..
You will see the struggle we all have to go to fixed numbers, preferring wattage and or HR and than hope we can do something with it.
 Remember :
Wattage is a perfect feedback on performance, but does not  give us any indication on how and why we can produce today 200 wattage easy and tomorrow we may struggle. Wattage is great to use in combination with bio markers  feedback.
HR  possibly the most used bio marker for the moment as the huge HR monitor market is real proof of it.
 As  many wattage believer will argue, HR can fluctuate incredible, so we often can't use it. As well in  interval workouts as well as strength  workouts :HR has its limitation.
 BUT, when we add to HR wattage and to wattage additional biomarker, which would give us  real time feedback on the trends  in energy use, we may suddenly start to make sense out of it
.
 Problem.  MOXY or NIRS  and with it the information on energy use and deliver is very new  for most  of the readers, despite is existence since more than 50 years. Reason was , that we had no decent   access to the information than in big research labs.

 Now of a sudden you have this info on your Garmin watch.Togther with HR and wattage.  No wonder we  see the value but as well no wonder we are a little bit confused.
Despite many great studies on NIRS, the academic community missed the step to close the gap between scinece and practical applications. We  try here to slowly but surely increase the awaerness step by step  with  our Blogs  , seminars  and  forum informations   as well as  e books  and on line servcies .
 
  Problem. We  simply cant  get this out in 1 wee  or  so ,as we like to show you  30 years of  a developpment to where we are now and we still learn daily with each assessment we   can  get  our hands on.

Here an inside view of one example of many we have ongoing for the moment.
will show you this coaches  information and will go into details liek we did  with teh previous  one  from Finland. Please  get  questions back to us.
 So here a part of our ongoing conversation followed by real assessment informations.

Hi Andri and Juerg,
 
One of my sessions is 60-120min keeping heart rate under 140. Power comes out at 220-240Watts. To compete better, a number upwards of 280Watts at this heart rate is closer the mark.
I ‘think’ the sub 140HR is good for improving aerobic adaptations? What I would like to know is if the duration is too short or the intensity too hard or too easy? I will try do this exact session with Moxy tomorrow and see what the SmO2 and tHb does over the time course. Perhaps you can provide some understanding on this data.
In 8 weeks, we have a qualifier for World Masters Marathon MTB champs. I would like to ride this qualifier because the World Masters Marathon MTB Champs are being held 30km from where I live on an extremely hilly course in the 1st week of May. My age category is 40-44.
I have no time limits on training hours and would like to guinea pig myself in training with Moxy for a big event.
 
Terms, what is:
CPT-1
MCT-1 and 4
PFK-1
PERF
How do I get ergospirometry data? Is there specific equipment and what test protocol?
How do I get cardiac data? Is there specific equipment and what test protocol?
 
More Questions (Ignore mail from this morning, have added the questions here so all is together)
- Why does tHb drop during the 240Watt efforts but then increase for the 300 and 360Watt efforts?
- Does muscle strength have an effect on performance? The muscles are under the most load at 360Watts, but that was still effectively 450 pedal revolutions / reps over 5min, so a very light ‘load’ per pedal stroke. If strength is a limiter, is there a strength test or a strength requirement. I know I don’t need to be as strong as a power lifter, but should I have the ability to leg press 150kgs ten times for example?
- SmO2 started just over 60%, is that normal, high, low, does it indicate anything? Why isn't it 80%?
- SmO2 dropped to 13% early into the 5min 360watt effort and then climbed a little. Is that low, should capacity be there to go lower?
- Goal would be to have much higher SmO2 at 360watt and capacity to complete 2 x 360watt and still be able to do a 420watt. How would this be achieved through training?
 
- If it is cardiac, what would training script be?
 
- If it is respiratory, what would training script be?
 
Target Market & Sales
Must be honest, I am a little anxious about assessing the feedback from Moxy. I have no idea where to start focussing training based on the data from the 5/1/5 test, which means I certainly can’t advise anyone else?
Would it be 10% volume at STEI, 60% at FEI, etc... The target customer will need simple, straight answers, i.e. to go faster, you need to focus 90% of training volume on this zone, 5% in this zone and 5% in that zone - and then re-test in 4 weeks or 10 weeks? Is that going to be impossible with Moxy, am I going to need a comprehensive test lab?
 
Once we start moving into testing individuals one by one with Moxy, ergospirometry, cardiac machines, etc… then we start selling hours to one person at a time and I know there are few customers willing to pay accordingly, we won’t be able to survive. I would like to have this test equipment to provide comprehensive testing to more elite athletes or those with no cash constraints, but I don’t want this to be the model.
 
Kind regards

This is a great summary to many questiosn we  have over the last few month.
We will  get answers  to all of them  earlier  or later.
  Here a  short part of  one responds  before  we start going to the basic  of it.


XY , all great questions and it shows your understanding. It as well shows the need for changes in what we did in the past. You can see, that when we used VO2 max we did not have any of this questions. we simply loaded up found a maximal tested number and than used a calculator. And that was it. The power meter did not change anything really , we find a FTP number (performance ) we can hold over 60 min. decided this is 100 % and than use again a calculator to create a training zoning. We used a lactate analyzer, found what we called LBP. set this as optimal and than use a number like 10 or 20 from the HR we had at LBP.

The big advantage is or was. Simple straight forward and no questions to answer.

The big question is, whether this is what happens physiologically in our body..

Why are FTP or VO2 max or lactate threshold so successful from a business point of view.

Simple answer.

It is the simplicity and the result does not open questions.

So we can get a 10'000 $ VO2 equipment this days and we can test an all out test on a bike or treadmill or upper body ergo meter or rowing ergo meter or on any equipment in the lab.

Than we need a decent calculator and we have all set to go.

NIRS/ MOXY has the advantage , that we can go much more individually and if the coaches once understand the basic information we are far ahead of the game.

We for the moment test 4 people at the same time in any specific sport we like to test.

In fact the numbers of athletes you can test at the same time is limited only by the numbers of MOXY you have.

Brian Kozak the leading Ice hockey coach in Canada is just now testing in a sport school 60 kids and they do this in 4 different sports easy in 2 days.

We can test a complete soccer team all at the same time on a soccer field in 1 hour easy.

If we go more bike specific we test 4 cyclist at the same time in 11 2/; h easy , including mounting and testing and cleaning up after.

Equipment cost.

4 wattage trainers if you do it in a lab.

4 MOXY's with a software system to store the data's plus 4 ANT + HR belts.

This will depending on the wattage trainers move you as well to the 10'000 $ cost but you generate 4 x more money in one hour than you get out of a VO2 max test including no hassles with VO2 mask and contamination and cleaning nor do you have ongoing costs with O2 and CO2 sensors which will be +- 500 $ each as well masks have an ongoing cost. We charge like any VO2 max test 250 +- $ per test including interpretation. . So any center out there can make the calculation on how fast you actually have your investment paid back.

This would be the basic testing equipment, which you can move as well outside the lab as well you could rent out MOXY's for workouts or for races and or sell MOXYs.

If you like to go much more into exercise physiology like we do in europe and in Canada, than you may have in your lab the equipment , where you can assess all systems non invasively. So you look for a NIRS ( MOXY )

a cardiac non-invasive assessment tool and the only one on the market is Physio Flow.

and you look for any good VO2 equipment with possibly CO2 information as well as all the respiratory information's you like o have like VE and RF .

Okay this the info to your business questions.

The answer to all you great other question is relative simple.

How many month do you have time to learn all of the questions you have.

Your great questions shows what we all experience , the lack of answers in what we currently do in athletic training.

To give you all the answers you need to be patient.

It is impossible for us to simply give you a cookbook here. The answers are in the physiological responds of individual bodies. It is all about testing and learning with each single test as we go along. Many coaches now using MOXY do this more and more successful.

They test and we than help them to analyse the results and each case has its special questions and special answers and special individual training suggestion we go with it. Than you reassess and see, whether what we tried to accomplish was really accomplished or whether we have to change the stimuli.

It is all about limiter and compensator and I like to compare this like somebody who buys a Mc Donald restaurant.

He has not to think they tell him how to cook and he just follows the order or a great french chef who develops his own great food unique to his restaurant.

That's what we really work on is the understanding of the use of MOXY to " cook" an individual meal but every body still can afford it..

Your questions look still like we all do , we look for an easy fast answer based on numbers rather than on understanding what this all means.

Example.

The SmO2 numbers mean as such nothing , when we not move them into context.

There is no such thing like is 60 % SmO2 good at the start or would it be better to have 80 %.

SmO2 is an information on how much % of your red blood cells are loaded with O2. You can have 100 % loaded but you may work out complete O2 independent as you can not access the O2 . We call that O2 is NOT bioavailable.

.This is one of many examples where we have to understand , what makes O2 bio available.

This is what we discussed very short on the part with altitude : do we have responders or non responders.

To make an end here for the moment. The great questions you have fill up a book we are all writing on and answers , which will take us a few month to get through with it..

So we have to start somewhere on a baseline and often the baseline is screwed up from old believes we carry with us and old ideas, who have to be taken in consideration, when starting to use some new directions.

So please be patient as we slowly move into the different details all together and some times we may have to step back and reassess the direction we are heading to.

Cheers for now Juerg

 






Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
Okay let's  start with  what  we  had on information first.  See word  att  followed  by PP.

 
Attached Files
docx This_is_the_first_assessment_we_got_form_South_Africa.docx (131.50 KB, 38 views)

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Now here  to just start  the thinking process  for  real 5/1/5  we  than got in. Look   and think what the difference is :  att one is the "unreal  5/1/5  we  had  above  att 2 the full 5/1/5

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: mark_thb_and_SmO2.jpg, Views: 32, Size: 61.52 KB 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 
Follow  up on the above.
 Short intermission  for some clarification.
 1. MOXY  can be used  as a standalone  with HR  and wattage  to have an incredible easy  and small functioning lab equipment to assess in a center or in the field.
 Our    first attempt here is to show you  how you can use it as  a  indirect information on performance  and limiter and compensator.

This is the   first goal of using MOXY.  You can combine it in your existing lab  with all the tools you already have to get an even better in depth  idea  of limiter and compensator  idea.
. We  here  first simply show you what MOXY  can do  and what we measure  and how it  relates  to  performance  and limiter and compensator.


2.  We    than  use MOXY as a training bio feedback  tool  to  keep  a control over  what we like to achieve  with  the   workout  we designed.  This   is the practical application   for training   and it  is   the coaches     choices  and ideas  like it   always is to decide  what he like  to  improve.
  Problem.  The nice problme is, that now  we know  how good the training plan was. We  do not take   the performance as a  guide  for improvement  but the actual  physiological changes we   now  can see and retest  as the   feedback for  success or failure of a program.
 Example: You may be able to push a higher wattage  thanks to a better utilization of O2.  But  in an endurance race  you may be   worse , as you  training  created   a change in CO2  so you can   utilize  better  but you cant' maintain this  very long  so  now you  can use O2  but you cant' reload properly.
. So in a  Wingate  test (  which supposed  to be  an " anaerobic  " test you have  a better result  due to better O2  use  ( aerobic  improvement ) but because  you  utilize  better  due to O2  shift to the right  you have a problem  to reload in the lungs to the blood  due to the shift to the right.
  So short term gain long term loss.
 The wattage  change  seems  positive the race result may be  very negative in a longer race.
Remember:
 You may improve utilization but may kill  delivery.  Example  excessive  altitude training  for a sport where stength is an important factor as well. The " scientifique  conlusion  due to the lack of finding limiters  with VO2  max  and lactate testing is :  This is  simply a nonresponder.
, when in fact he responded  very well just  in the wrong direction.

Summary . Step one is to  integrate  MOXY as a test tool for coaches  and  than  in the phase 2  as a bio feedback tool for the athletes.
  But first  coaches  have to  understand  what the different trends mean  and  what limiters    we see    before using  it as a bio feedback tool.  So we have to go step by step.
  Here   a  short great summary on  an ongoing exchange of  emails  for all to  get going on names  and terminology.

I am busy working through some of the abbreviations to help better understand the posts. A physiology degree would have been very useful to have in understanding the Moxy quicker. Still a few gaps to fill in:
O2Hb + O2Mb - balance between O2 delivery and O2 utilization
VE - Total air we breathe each minute in liters (VE = RF + TV) Yes
RF - Respiratory Frequency yes and normally it is breath / min
TV - Tidal Volume Yes and it is normally measured in ml and is the amount per breath
SV - Stroke Volume yes and it is measured in ml and it is the amount per beat
FeO2 - it is normally in % of the amount we breath out in O2. so normally 20.9 % of O2 we breath in and if we have a FeO2 of 16.9 % in the expired air than we used 4 % of O2 . It could be calculated in mmHg and you need to know the air pressure as you tested.
EtCO2 - is the expired CO2 and is called end tidal CO2.
it is normally measured in mmHg but could be calculated back to % like FeO2. CO2/ O2 will give you RER and many argue RER = RQ which can be true but often is not true in 3 min tests at all.
StO2 - Tissue Oxygen Saturation Yes and it is used mainly when you use a Portamon. See the difference between StO2 which often has the name TSI % as well and SmO2 tested with MOXY in the forum.
SmO2 - Muscle Oxygen Saturation Yes and we use a green trace to show it on a graph
tHb - Total Hemoglobin (tHb = O2Hb + HHB) Yes and we use a brown trace when using on a graph
O2Hb - Oxygenated Hemoglobin Yes and we use a red trace when using on a graph
HHb - Deoxygenated Hemoglobin Yes and we use a blue trace when using on a graph
Hb diff - Difference between O2Hb and HHB Yes and we use a purple trace when using on a graph
TSI% - Tissue Saturation as % of O2Hb to tHb Well somewhat true but not completely they have a specific formula
MIP - Muscular Intensity Profile Yes
RIP - Respiratory Intensity Profile Yes
CIP - Cardiac Intensity Profile Yes
MVO2 - Cardiac Oxygen Demand Trend No MVO2 stands for myocardial O2 use like we have VO2 max for all O2 use MVO2 is for O2 used by your cardiac muscle.
CCT - Cardiac Contraction Time Yes and it is the result of LVET x HR where LVET stands for left ventricular ejection time and it is measured in msec so CCT is in sec and is the time the cardiac muscle itself does not gets O2 supplied
LVET - Left Ventricular Ejection Time yes and it is measured in msec
MVC - Maximal voluntary contraction Yes but some people may use it as maximal Vital capacity MVC. which is perhaps overkill as Vital capacity should be maximal
CPT-1 - ????? where did you find that and in what combination ??
MCT-1 & 4 - Protein carrier They are additional reasons why lactate as an idea of fixed numbers or " lactate threshold is a nice idea but irrelevant to be used..
MOXY is one of the tools , where we most likely can see, whether we may influence MCT 1 or MCT 4 with specific workouts.
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2001 Nov;86(1):6-11.

The expression of lactate transporters (MCT1 and MCT4) in heart and muscle.

Author information

  • Department of Kinesiology, University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. abonen@ healthy.uwaterloo.ca

Abstract

It is now known that lactate traverses the plasma membrane of many tissues, including heart and muscle, via a stereo-specific, pH-dependent monocarboxylate transport (MCT) system. In the past few years a family of MCTs (MCT1-MCT7) has been cloned. Transcripts of MCT1 and MCT4 are detectable in rat and human skeletal muscle and in the heart. However, only skeletal muscle expresses both the MCT1 and MCT4 proteins, whereas rat heart expresses the MCTI, but not the MCT4 protein. The kinetic activities of MCT1(Km=3.5 mM) and MCT4 (Km= 17-34 mM) are quite different. Among rat muscles, MCT1 expression is highly correlated with the oxidative fiber composition of the muscle, and other indices of oxidative metabolism. Lactate uptake from the circulation is also highly correlated with the MCT1 content of muscles. MCT4 is confined to fast-twitch (fast glycolytic and fast oxidative glycolytic) muscle fibers, in which MCT4 content is correlated with indices of anaerobic metabolism. Collectively, these data suggest that MCT1 and MCT4 are primarily responsible for lactate uptake from the circulation and lactate extrusion out of muscle, respectively. Exercise training can increase the expression of both MCT1 and MCT4 in human muscle, although the extent of this up-regulation may be related to the intensity of training. In the rat heart, MCT1 expression is induced more easily by exercise training than in rat skeletai muscle. It appears that MCT1 and MCT4 expression are regulated in a tissue-specific and isoform-specific manner. Therefore, skeletal muscle lactate concentrations are not only regulated by the rate of glycolysis, but also by the efficiency of trans-sarcolemmal lactate transport, a process that is regulated by the quantity of available MCT proteins.

PFK-1 -
 

Phosphofructokinase is a kinase enzyme that phosphorylates fructose 6-phosphate in glycolysis.

The enzyme-catalysed transfer of a phosphoryl group from ATP is an important reaction in a wide variety of biological processes.[1] One enzyme that utilizes this reaction is phosphofructokinase (PFK), which catalyses the phosphorylation of fructose-6-phosphate to fructose-1,6- bisphosphate, a key regulatory step in the glycolytic pathway.[2][3] PFK exists as a homotetramer in bacteria and mammals (where each monomer possesses 2 similar domains) and as an octomer in yeast (where there are 4 alpha- (PFK1) and 4 beta-chains (PFK2), the latter, like the mammalian monomers, possessing 2 similar domains[3]). This protein may use the morpheein model of allosteric regulation.[4]

PFK is about 300 amino acids in length, and structural studies of the bacterial enzyme have shown it comprises two similar (alpha/beta) lobes: one involved in ATP binding and the other housing both the substrate-binding site and the allosteric site (a regulatory binding site distinct from the active site, but that affects enzyme activity). The identical tetramer subunits adopt 2 different conformations: in a 'closed' state, the bound magnesium ion bridges the phosphoryl groups of the enzyme products (ADP and fructose-1,6- bisphosphate); and in an 'open' state, the magnesium ion binds only the ADP,[5] as the 2 products are now further apart. These conformations are thought to be successive stages of a reaction pathway that requires subunit closure to bring the 2 molecules sufficiently close to react.[5]

Deficiency in PFK leads to glycogenosis type VII (Tarui's disease), an autosomal recessive disorder characterised by severe nausea, vomiting, muscle cramps and myoglobinuria in response to bursts of intense or vigorous exercise.[3] Sufferers are usually able to lead a reasonably ordinary life by learning to adjust activity levels.[3]

PERF - Performance of any kind ( wattage, speed a.s.o )
 
Cheers

XY

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
Okay , above we where looking  at  2 assessments    from the same person  and you can see the incredible  accurate info  and repeatability of MOXY despite a different protocol but if you look at trends  you can see the  same limitation in this person.
 Now here is an additional info  when starting to use MOXY as a  great assessment tool  for coahes  , centers  and self  coached athletes.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #6 
follow  up  1.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #7 
Follow  up  2.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #8 
As  Mark makes  fast progress  to be the leading guy in South Africa in NIRS / MOXY assessment , we  always  will have  some basic  questions. Here a very short part of  an ongoing email exchange of  ideas  and thoughts.
 

Hi Juerg and Roger,

 

Thank you for your feedback, another crazy day, which never happens on a Friday so feel like I am falling behind on learning.

 

I have continued to test day after with the steady efforts, trying to spot a pattern. Today a pattern showed and I think it is related to recovery? Attached are 2 previous steady effort sessions to compare (Roger, please can you convert today’s Peripedal).

 

Session was just 1hr at 231Watts.

SmO2 and tHb declined noticeably.

SmO2 showed more erratic utilization.

Heart rate drifted upwards.

With being busy, trained late yesterday afternoon (did an interval session for a change), slept poorly, and did this early this morning.

 

A question is could something be done prior to session to assess readiness to train?

 

Looking forward to your ideas on how to use SmO2 in a workout without getting lost in the numbers.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

Mark here you got the point one :
"A question is could something be done prior to session to assess readiness to train?" MOXY and or any bio marker is exactly that a bio feedback to see,whether your body is ready to be stressed again in a specific intensity with a specific goal.
That is the fundamental difference between using % from calculations and wattage e as guidance.
MOXY or any biomarker uses your physiological systems to give feedback on where and what is recovered and where and what is still in a recovery mode to get better.
Remember the old rule Training never makes you better it always makes your worse. The actual; progress comes with resting. Training is a catabolic process, recovery is an anabolic process. Nobody will take catabolic steroids to get better they all use anabolic steroids do they ?

2.

Looking forward to your ideas on how to use SmO2 in a workout without getting lost in the numbers. That is the second fundamental difference between using bio markers as feed backs and or % or wattage. The latter is all about numbers. yet first is all about bio feedback and trends as they are all interconnected.

Simple example:

You did a respiratory workout yesterday to overload your respiratory system. Lets;' say the goal was inter muscular respiratory coordination.

So you know that today this system is most likely not recovered and therefore you do not like to stress it again, but you may still like to work out.

So you may choose to do a cardiac stress today with a recovery mode for respiration but a right ventricular overload to stress stroke volume.

If you simply take a FTP wattage number you will again overload an already fatigue respiratory system and you will need to compensate with either muscular or cardiac work. Now you double overload the respiration and you add an overload for the cardiac system . So what can you do tomorrow , besides the fact, that the % or watt numbers not even helped you to understand what system you have overloaded in the first place.

Summary.

It is all about readiness for a workout and that's' where moxy comes in as you get the feedback for this .

It is all to forget numbers as you look at trends and feed backs in combination with each other the easiest bio markers are HR RF and SmO2 and tHb.

Cheers and take it easy

. Juerg

 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #9 
Got  some great   feedback on this ongoing discussion.
  The most common question  is:
 Why do we know  he has a muscular limitation  .  Is  an increase in tHb  always a sign of a muscular  limitation.
  a)  we do not know    for sure  but when looking closer  we have some hints.
  The reason  why  I   give this as a limitation is a really bad  example  how we  should not go  ahead  with  conclusions  but rather  do observations.
 As  I have hundreds of test, where I combined   all toys  v form VIO2  max  equipment to lactate,  NIRS  and physio flow ( non invasive cardiac assessment )  I    have the  bad  habit  to see what I see, rather  to   explain what we observe.
  tHb  can climb  up  out of different reasons    than just  starting venous occlusion.
. The signs  are  somewhat different  and as we move more  and more  to be a  chef  instead of a franchise  we  learn together all this interesting observations.
  The att shows  you  a very old  case study  done with Portamon  so green is  actually tHb  which we  now  have brown.
 look at the interesting  reactions. the cardiac info is done  with a physio flow .  Left is  in blue  HR   middle in yellow  SV in ml  and  right is  HR x  SV =  CO  ( cardiac output in L/ Min

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