Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #1 
My Goal  ( often  don't  achieve them  but will try )  for this week is  to  fulfill  answers  or at least   some ideas  on  backlog information.
1.  Rower  assessment  and questions  what we do  in this sport
2.  S. M    closer look  at the   data's  from  a  client  with a very high SmO2  value  and   what   we   would try.
3.
Marcel's   question on a practical  example  over a  span of a  certain time  and how to apply   MOXY  during a  workout.
4. Ideas on the latest   data's showed   from our  friend    in eastern  Canada.  The    critical comment  on this   2  pics.    The  question was.
  SmO2   look as they drop  pretty much  to a similar  value, indicating a  use  of O2   which is higher than the   reloading.
  Why  do we  have a  fluctuation in tHb   i the  green   load   and  basically no fluctuation in the  shorter  load.  ?

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: 3_and_2.jpg, Views: 22, Size: 79.61 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: thb_2_3.jpg, Views: 22, Size: 74.77 KB 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
Okay  , as usual  all backwards  so I start  with  4.
 Pic  1  and pic  2  for  repeat
   You can see  in  pic 1 SmO2  trends  from 2 different workouts.
  in the first  15 - 20 min  or  till 1200  we have  somewhat  a  similar  value range.
  The red  traces  show a  clear pattern  of   load  and  unload  and we know now  it was a  " step test" of 5 min  with  1 min  unload  ( rest ).
  The other one  is not  so clear as it looks  like a kind of  'Interval"  idea  on something."
 I  say something because  the red one is on a bike    and the green ????
  It  has a very different behavior  and I will show you  where we  can see  that.
 So green   could be  but is unlikely  a bike interval. In red you can see the by now typical  situation of a  new  load   so SmO2  drops  very  fast and low  as a sign of  intensive integration of  O2  to the needed  energy.
 Pretty much the opposite  on what we  learn  or learned  in school with ATP  CP  and Glucose  and somewhat  far later  by  60 seconds  integration of  O2   slowly.
  With NIRS we  see  a massive   use of  O2   with a  subsequent  rebound   and in red  you can see it in  all stage  with exception of the last one, where he  keeps  using  O2   ( Good  utilization  but limited    delivery.)
.
 Now  in the green   SmO2  trends  we  do not see that rebound  at all.
  It can be  out  off different reasons  we  can talk  later  as we go even deeper in  looking   at NIRS. But this is  what we see  as a clear difference.  We  could argue, that if  he  deloads  down to SmO2  the load is so  high , that there is no rebound  anymore possible ???  suggestion  speculation  but possible.
 Now  the key as mentioned is  to  add  tHb  to the  discussion.  so pic  3  and pic  4.  SmO2  and thb  from both  assessments  or  workouts. Now look at  tHb  rebounds  and   no rebounds.
Remember  that in contrast to  research  type of ideas  we  do not have an occlusion    away from the working muscles.  We have a  muscular compression  at every start of a new  load  after rest.
 This initial  activity   creates a  compression  and  blood is pushed  out  in  2  directions.
  Once  the momentum is reached  and   the proper  recruitment of needed  motor units  is  reached  after the initial overload  we    see  or can see a rebound  to a  for that  load normal blood flow.  There is a moment  where this  is  not seen anymore. Now look at the  "Interval load.
  In   the opposite  direction  we have a  " warm up " phase followed by an increase  in all loads  and even more interesting  an increase  of tHb  during load and a decrease    in the short   breaks.  Meaning that  during the load  the blood volume goes  up  and  no  actual decompression  load. Meaning , that there was  not a  clear muscle contraction option  here   bit something strange.
  You could produce  this  with an incredible  fast  explosive contraction, basically like  a  occlusion test  tourniquet.
  It is  nearly impossible to do that  on a bike  or even    during strenght  workout.
 You could    even in a plyometric  jump   no see  this so clear   as  you ave a  compression  in any of this cases.
 So  the question here is   whether he used  something  not " natural"   like Electric  stimulation  or  something  which immediately  contracts  the muscle so hard  that you   get a  venous occlusion    immediately  and    if the  tension keeps  going g up a n arterial  occlusion  so it stops . Than  we see a    drop in SmO2  like in an occlusion test.    So lets  give it a closer look at one single load  with tHb  and O2  Hb  and HHb

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: 3_and_2.jpg, Views: 13, Size: 79.61 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: thb_2_3.jpg, Views: 13, Size: 74.77 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: step_thb_and_Smo2.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 62.57 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: starn_thb_smo2.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 73.39 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: close_look_strange_load.jpg, Views: 14, Size: 81.51 KB 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
I like to keep going  n the last  section here   from data's  sent to us  from eastern Canada  by  Y.
 Remember we  do not  educate  but we try to think together.
 So here is  a  set of  pictures  to show you how  we   move  step by step  to try  to  get closer to  find Limiter  and compensator.
  I will show  you first  just the   simple data collection   we get from MOXY.
  Than in a later   phase   I like to show you , hwy  we think we  can read  much more out  of MOXY  when we  combine some additional  bio marker  to it like HR  as  a  very easy one    and hope fully in some cases  respiratory  information's   and    another potential easy one  SpO2..
  Goal here.  Start with Pic  one  and  simply  assess  what you see in the trend of the SmO2.   No other info  as of yet   on the protocol.   Y  used.  Than  Pic  2  is an assessment  with our  5/1/5  protocol The pic  2  is  actually a  picture  of 2  5/1/5  assessments . look at  as well fist simply the trend  in green  .  not yet the red  HR info.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: 5_1_5_new_smo2.jpg, Views: 19, Size: 67.89 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: overlapp_hr_and_SmO2_1_17.jpg, Views: 20, Size: 40.01 KB 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 
So  what  do we look  for:
  1. SmO2 trend  in the load  phase  but as well  in the  unload  ( 1 min rest ) phase.
a) is it    climbing steady,  flat , dropping steady  or  any other interesting trend  in the load phase.
  b)  deload phase   are  the deluding trends  the same  (  height  and  increase  for the  moment the legs  stopped.
  Here a thought.
 SmO2  is the amount  of O2  in the tested  area  as a %  of the total  Hb.
So   at the moment I suddenly stop  I stop  as well   suddenly the  need  for  the   delivered  O2   ( or at least a  lot  ) of the  delivered  O2 ) is not used   now.
 So  the  increase in SmO2   could be a part of the still delivered  but no not used  O2  ????
  Why?  Well check the trends  of the other systems.  like HR and RF  for example.
  If  I stop the legs  immediately stop  and the  need  for all this O2  immediately  is lowered.
  But the HR  not immediately drops  down  to  where  it will be   1 min later   as well as  the RF  will not   bang  drop :
 So  we have still a  great delivery  or even better, as there is no tension in the muscles  as well and the sudden increase  in SmO2 is the    value of the O2  which was used  by the   working muscles.  (  So you can combine this    with VO2  assessment  (  watch there is a  delay there   from the muscle  to the mouth )
  Now  l0ok  how much  form  load  to    the  top of the deload  is SmO2  increasing ???
  Now   look how much SmO2  drops  at the start of the next  load.
  Fast  drop     why:
 Well after  1 min HR  and RF  are lower  so  delivery is lower  but need is  much higher  so  we may in some case  see  an  undershoot  of SmO2    till HR  and RF  are back on a  better  or optimal delivery  level   than we  may see  any increase in SmO2  or a    change in trend.
  So  the  drop  is      telling you what. Think that we  have a  2  -+  sec  e delay on the   graph   live info  so the drop in fact is even a little bit faster.
  Last question>
 O2  deficit.
 : If  we  have  something like an O2  deficit     we should see  after the load in the  deload phase   a  drop in SmO2  as  we  have to repay the deficit . As higher the intensity  as bigger the deficit ???
  Do we see  a drop in SmO2  .
  Is the increase   of SmO2  a  sign of a deficit  or  of the opposite  an overflow ?
   What about  EPOC  ( extended  period  of  O2  consumption.
 Would we see a  peak like this in the local muscles. Is the peak a  sign of  overflow  of O2  or a sign  of  O2  which is not bio  available ?
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
Short feedback     after  a  short mail.
  Can you show a  pic  and   hints  where you look at  the explained info  above.
 Here  the hint.  So no  the next step is  to  discuss, where you would see changes n the SmO2  trend    clear enough  to  justify  the    idea, that  there may be a  change in metabolic    and other demands   at  that  specific  stage.  Other people would name it  " zoning )  So where  would you put  zoning  areas  in . Names   don;'t  matter.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: circle_smo2.jpg, Views: 17, Size: 68.60 KB 

S.M.

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 65
 #6 
Looking at the work load lines I would have put zones:

ARI ending at about 10 minutes
STEI ending at about 17 minutes
FEI ending at about 24 minutes
HII ending at about 28 minutes 

Looking at the picture you added with the added lines on it I'm not sure if I should be looking at the angle trends. 




Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #7 
This is a good discussion base lone  and  the points  you make are well taken.
  There is a small problem  and that's  why S.M  was choosing this  lines.
 This  is NOT  a 5/1/5  test it is a  step test  with  1 min rest in between  so we  miss some  trends  as we  have no interruption   of homeostasis  but  just an end stage. This  gives  us  some  open   points.
 Here  the  numbers  on the  load  in this test  including  HR  and  lactate values.  So  when we are not  completely sure  we  can add  additional values  like  in here  or  we  stay   with MOXY and add  tHb  as  a trend information on blood volume  changes.  here  the SmO2  and tHb

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: all_values_smo2_lac_hr.jpg, Views: 14, Size: 71.57 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: 5_1_5_new_smo2_thb.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 62.98 KB 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #8 
: If we have something like an O2 deficit 

Got  some mails   on that    part I  wrote.

I like to show you may points  as usual  in a picture.
  If we  do a  VO2  assessment we will see  a phase  on  slow increase   after a start of VO2  till we reach a  steady state  VO2 level  after  about  1  + min .   So the "classical" idea  is, that the   slow increase in VO2    till we reach the  steady state  where  O2  intake  and output  is  stable   creates a  O2  deficit.
  It looks like that if  we take a VO2  equipment.  WHY.
  Lag time ?    because we test   at the mouth  and not  at the place  where the a action takes  place.
 Here  an overlap  of a VO2    load  to steady state  level  and    MOXY SmO2   trend to  Steady  state level. Difference.
 In MOXY we see , that  at the start O2  is heavily  used    but it  can't show up in a VO2  test.
  So we  argue  it is a   deficit  on O2 .  when perhaps  we could argue  it is a deficit  of the equipment as it misses  the use  of  O2   due to the fact that we  are not  at the    activity  area, where it takes place.
  Here the pic   you  give the answers.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: o2_defizit_vs_MOXY.jpg, Views: 15, Size: 69.75 KB 

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter - Quick-counter.net