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juergfeldmann

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 #1 
Now  this is not a  critic on the idea of power or  FTP or any thing.  it is  just a nice  way  to show the fundamental difference between physiological guided ideas and  training's , versus performance based ides.
 One of  the interesting differences is, that  physiological ideas can be applied  to any activity  from gardening to milking   goats ( fore arm pump  observation  [wink] and any other activity , where performance a  such is very hard  to   control  or  to objectively measure.
. The second  interesting difference may  be, that   when using physiological ideas, we  may accept  when seeing the live feedback's, that we simply are not a  calculated   motor  and that we have different days  with different   performance situation   caused  by many different influences . 
 . That is where we  have  clear disadvantage, when  aiming  for physiological  ideas.
 We have nonstop  critical question on what we  do and   how we may achieve  a certain goal .
If  we use  formulas  based on FTP  or  220 - age  or  " max  VO2  " or  any of the 25  ideas  of LT  we have minimal questions  and  have a clear   information  on  what we suppose  to  do.   If we like this approach , than we should not even start to  entertain  the many questions we  always have , when looking  at improving individual  performance and  as  well health. If  we  are interested   in the physiological approach  because we not  just feel or believe , but actually see live that we  adjust daily  to  stimulation, than  physiological approaches are very very   awarding  with a lot of  fun  and   the ability to learn   all the time  and  start to  feel and understand  our own  body  and  the ability we  can get out of it  for personnel  best performance 
  Below  a  great question from a great   site  golden cheetah


Americo Cacciapuoti 
[image]
11:20 AM (2 hours ago)
 
Hi Guys
 
What's the best way to calculate my FTP from GC?
 
I haven't done a proper 20 min test but I got a lot of rides and races where I should have an approximate value
 
Thanks a lot 
sebo2000

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Posts: 227
 #2 

I think we should talk less and compare less with performance driven methods, and concentrate more on making physiological methods more understood and transparent for average Joe. It should not be battle physiological vs. entire world. New SmO2 training trend would be more efficient if we would stop talking about “other methods” If I want to sell you my product I never want to talk about other products or even mention them, for many reasons.

 Mathematical (FTP, power threshold, VO2max, lactate training, whatever other creative name there is for it) methods have years of aggressive marketing advantage and once someone learns it, they almost preach is as bible, by talking about them in any context we only promote them further.

 We all know FTP driven HIIT training will offer big initial gains when used by untrained athletes if they will not injure themselves first in the process, those gains are attractive and appealing.

 Many people after initial injury will just give up on sport all together, they will say: it’s not for me, I’m too old. Some more determined, who reached HIIT limit might think: that’s it I’m 40yold that is how far I will ever go…. And just very few, will pursue other methods and will discover Moxy etc.

 I’m super new to Moxy, I love it, I really see this as the only way to progress to where I want to be, I already see huge progress in just a bit less than 2 months. (at the end I will show you what I could not do in 6 years, but did 2 days ago)

 I’m going to share how I feel as new user, this is not criticism, just honest feedback.

 First my background: I was raised in Europe and finish part of my education in Europe, high school and part of university. We had very demanding teachers, they were never saying anything straight, every lecture had context, there was always hidden message for us to decipher. During tests it was always a battle to catch us and trick us, not to help us study (at list that’s what we thought) We asked one question, they have asked 2 questions back trying to get us on the right path, many people were scared to ask, only brave enough were successful. I came to Canada I finished my education literally without any studying as everything seemed very easy, I have quite good job, actually amazing job it is one of those 0.0001% jobs, I think it was all possible because of “terrible” education I received.

 Participating in this forum reminds me god old times back in Europe, you ask one question Juerg will ask 2 back trying to point you to the right path. I love it, since I’m used to it, I know what his intentions are, he wants me to think on my own.

 I’m afraid many people is not used to it, they will just give up. I understand about incredible value of mental stimulation we get here in this open forum conversations. Many people will not have enough time and simply is used to different (easier) learning style\system, where everything is given to you on the plate and you just have to memorize the stuff, for the test. Unfortunately that’s the world we live in.

 Most people will very quickly understand by reading Moxy materials how beneficial this tool can be. This part is covered very well.

 But there is really nothing easily outlined that could help people start. It took me few days of reading to finally get to 5-1-5 and other stuff and I was still not sure if I’m doing it properly and what should I look for in the charts

 Something like:

“Start here” read only pinned post:

  1. Perform your 5-1-5 assessment, description of the protocol in details, also show how different behaviors during assessment could affect outcome, drinking water, seating up, scratching a$$ etc[smile]
  2. Perform your recovery assessment (detailed protocol, describing what could cause to have different outcomes etc.)
  3. Define your intensity zones.
  4. How calibration\warmup should be performed and what to look for when doing it.
  5. Describe different type of limiters and how they could potentially look in reading (yes I know they might look different, but just a sample to illustrate the trends and how to look at data)
  6. There should be some easy tool allowing to import multiple .csv in to it and be able to quickly zoom in, and align\compare any file. Not everyone is excel master or golden cheetah or https://plot.ly it should be fairly super easy to make with current free java charting solutions, probably 2 days of coding for someone that knows how to code.

We buy Moxy, and learn about 5-1-5,  but you really need to get down and dirty and read a lot of posts here go get the essence and have some understanding. I honestly appreciate the current forum model, it is great mental stimulation for me, and while I’m going through posts I learn a lot of other things, it is intellectual treat of some sort, I know people might think I’m nuts.

I can tell you for sure, not many people appreciate mental stimulations and this “complicated/challenging” type of knowledge sharing, we live in era of ADD, news are 2 lines long and we have 10 breaking news a day, everyone is go go go.

 
More people are opening their eyes, best example: there is 3rd NIRS coming to the market, I’m not sure if that was on your radar: http://humon.io/  not even close to Moxy for many reasons, I will not even mentioned here, I do not want to talk about it for the same reason we should not talk about lactate etc.

 Bottom line many peple see FTP treshold limitations..., as good as it is in definding "load" it is quite crapy for measuring training stimulus.


Real life example how Moxy in 1.5 months allowed me to do what I could not do in 6 years with power FTP methods:

 

While I could easily hit 1000W outside during summer, I could never exceed magic 1k barrier on the trainer, even for one second, it was one of those: I’m too old, I’m not good enough, it is impossible kind of thing, probboly impossible on the trainer without braking bike frame....

 

2 days ago I had this great indoor trainer session, I hit 1046W on the trainer for 5 seconds, I actually hit it twice in one minute. Booyah! [smile]

Proof: http://tpks.ws/bSUXG

juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #3 
Seboo  great   feedback  and the only   thing I  can say:

 agree with all your points. I was  in a humanistic  gymnasium in Switzerland  so   lots  of philosophy . The  key  was not  to be educated , meaning,  we do  not had  to  be able to repeat  what the teachers  told  us to repeat , but to argue  critically  what the  teacher  would tell us. So  we had   great information   you had  to argue  , or we  had  bad   information  and had  to argue  and very early on  you learn, that  it is not  the  point  to be right or  wrong,  but  the  ability  to be able to critically  argue  the points  and not take a  failure  or  a  wrong answer  as  a  negative feedback,  but as an  important part of a learning curve. Once  at the university, I was  lucky   to have   the majority  of Profs   thinking exactly that. We had  absolute leaders in exercise physiology of the first  generation of   real  researchers  and they  clearly  understood , that it is not  an EGO point  to  make  presentation but a professional  duty  to  create a critical  thinking process in the students.

S  for me  this  forum is a  loud  thinking  option  as I  have   2  ways  for myself  to learn.  :
 a  making a picture  and look whether it makes  sens  , or  writing it down  and read it loud.

 Now     people like YOU ,  Danielle  , Ruud , Bobby  and many more  who   so  great take  the time  and go  through  my mess  and than come back  and  give  all this  positive feedback's   , this is my loud  reading , where I have to listen  and rethink  how I formulate  the idea.  If  I am not able   for myself  to formulate it  , than I   seem to not really understand   it myself.
 This is a great  option for me  to see, where I have to go back  and create more   cases and re asses  the current ideas  and   facts  we can create.  Now  it may but it is not   the idea  to " battle " existing ideas. It is my loud  thinking on    and why I used  this ideas so long relative uncritically   and  did not earlier    searched  for  options.

Why I like to go back  to lactate and VO2  and so on is, as thanks  to this information's  and  equipment    I was able to  create  the   steps   to asses  more physiologically and   create  physiological guided  ideas  for my clients.

In fact I  use  lactate  for many other ideas, as it is a physiological marker  and we sue it  for assessing nutritional  situations  for example.
 But as well  to assess respiratory limitations  and so on. Same  with VO2   . This is a great tool  and  allows  us  to  get more   help  in case we think  it may be a respiratory  or a  cardiac  limitation by using information outside the VO2  max idea . It basically helps  VO2  users  to confirm  the NIRS   information   when they  combine it  at the same time. Once we understand  or see the  connection, than the step  for many on here to create their  philological guided  training is  very  easy to  do.
  The   goal on this forum as mentioned  many times  is  to introduce  interpretation    using NIRS.  This is  all what I  do her e and share   ideas. There are many out there  who  will show up as  NIRS  expert sooner than later , when in fact  we do not need  experts  ,as  nobody ever is an expert , as we  are all ongoing students. 

 I hope you understand  , that  this is  just one  way  to   improve  and  you are a part of  my personal   improvement.  Cheers Juerg

 PS  it is  fun but I have this night a  phone conference  with a   producer of a  big   sport  magazine  with the  title  of   more or less: What  did  we improved in exercise physiology in the last  1/2  century.
 When we  talked a week ago  I had  to say . Really nothing besides a much better  way  of collecting datas  and    show  them.
 IN reality  we  are  still stuck in the past  and ahvea  big bog probem to let go  and look  what we  cna use  from the past  t mve into he future.



juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #4 
Perhaps  one additional feedback  to  Seboo's  great point 
 

Something like:

“Start here” read only pinned post:

  1. Perform your 5-1-5 assessment, description of the protocol in details, also show how different behaviors during assessment could affect outcome, drinking water, seating up, scratching a$$ etc[smile]
  2. Perform your recovery assessment (detailed protocol, describing what could cause to have different outcomes etc.)
  3. Define your intensity zones.
  4. How calibration\warmup should be performed and what to look for when doing it.
  5. Describe different type of limiters and how they could potentially look in reading (yes I know they might look different, but just a sample to illustrate the trends and how to look at data)
  6. There should be some easy tool allowing to import multiple .csv in to it and be able to quickly zoom in, and align\compare any file. Not everyone is excel master or golden cheetah or https://plot.ly it should be fairly super easy to make with current free java charting solutions, probably 2 days of coding for someone that knows how to code.
Great  point is and as you can imagine  a very  common idea.  There's a  software  we use  since many years, where  we actually combine  much more  and I showed once in a  while some prints  to make it easier.
 We  overlap  and combine VO2, NIRS, blood, catdiac and SEMG  datas  in  one single  step  and than we  can  take it apart  to have each individual  close  up  or overlapped. 
 Here  one  example in  Italian.

ipahr it oxy.jpg 




IPAHR ita cardio.jpg


iphar it resp.jpg 
  and below an incredible   software  from Artinis   where you see all different depth and reactions in one. somewhat confusing if  you start out  but very telling once you get used  to.

yama 3 levels.JPG 

And last but not least  there is a  group in Europe,  who has a  training assessment  and  workout  software  t work  with their  athletes.  It may  be interesting  to see, that  just because  some newer companies make  some  statement of  being the first  or  what ever  does not mean  that is  true. There are  many more NIRS  equipment inclusion  individual   equipment   in universities out there who  work very well and very great. The difference is   only  that some use  this    to improve  their own  knowledge  rather than  to make  some  big business  ideas  with claims  we can not  back up at all.
So   a lot what you read on here is o done from all different groups  due  to interest in  research  rather  than  to  sell    or   indoctrinate  an idea into  any  groups. We  simply have    fun are sometimes close  to understanding ideas and sometimes  we  are  wrong  as  well.



sebo2000

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 227
 #5 
  The   goal on this forum as mentioned  many times  is  to introduce  interpretation    using NIRS.  This is  all what I  do her e and share   ideas. There are many out there  who  will show up as  NIRS  expert sooner than later , when in fact  we do not need  experts  ,as  nobody ever is an expert , as we  are all ongoing students. 

 I hope you understand  , that  this is  just one  way  to   improve  and  you are a part of  my personal   improvement.  Cheers Juerg


Ok get it now [smile] I must say I'm sorry for my way of looking at the world. I'm coming from financial\banking background and everything I look at is probably through slight $ prism, or how to improve\change something so it sale better.... not the greatest prism in relation to scientific research.

In the terms of combining Moxy with other physiological assessments/tests I do see value. Probably not in every case, but the more data the merrier, gives us more options to interpretation and discussion.




juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #6 
 not the greatest prism in relation to scientific research.  

Absolutely agree  and   he business section section in many great tools often destroys the value vale  of the  tools.  This is  for the moment a high risk  of NIRS  equipment  and  the  business  groups  pushing cheaper tools on the market  with minimal ideas on  limitation and  vales of the tools. 
Example is  using just SmO2  as a guide  for workouts  and I hope  at least  that  most readers   on here  start to understand,  that  it  has to be looked  upon a a combination of  tHb  and SmO2,  but as well  as Seboo  added  in adding any additions data collection we  can get  the hands  on.  


In the terms of combining Moxy with other physiological assessments/tests I do see value. Probably not in every case, but the more data the merrier, gives us more options to interpretation and discussion.


Absolutely agree  and  when in the past I  " slammed " lactate  or VO2   " than  that is not  a business idea , but some  long needed  critical views  on  some great ideas  from the past  which now  slowly  at least have to be  critically reviewed. 
sebo2000

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 227
 #7 

Example is  using just SmO2  as a guide  for workouts  and I hope  at least  that  most readers   on here  start to understand,  that  it  has to be looked  upon a a combination of  tHb  and SmO2,  but as well  as Seboo  added  in adding any additions data collection we  can get  the hands  on.  

That running gadget they are just releasing... yeah I can already see how I could argue functionality of their app and idea behind it....And I still do not know more than I understand.

To bad they are kinda going "half baked" way, I wonder if they understand that "guiding training based on SmO2 from single muscle" is kinda a big cheat, or they truly believe it is possible, and found or they are convinced they have found some "magic trends" 
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #8 
Good point  and the  fact is, that  even if  you place a NIRS on the same muscle on different areas  you will have a different SmO2  value  and sometimes  even  a  different trend.
 Same  with penetration depth. So  the  key is  to have  some more  data collections  and than you may be able in  individual cases  to move  towards a  single  NIRS  for certain   workouts, where you are confident  that  for example the non priority muscle   for that specific  workout is the  muscle you may look for  cardiac  lack f  recovery.  There are unfortunate  many gray areas  out there.
 Many  w  wrist watches  claiming  that  they can pick up your HR  and even your HRV. They never  do , they pick up your pulse rate   not your HR . Yes in many cases  at rest  your HR may  equal  your pulse  rate  but under load  , for example, you hold  cross country  ski poles  or you hold on a  handle bar  and have a dorsi  flexion  your pulse rate  will be interrupted  partially or  delayed  or   if there is a  forearm pump  with  a  venous  or  complrte  occlusion  you  will loose the pulse  rate.
 For HRV  you need  an incredible accurate  electrical signal  to be able to have  this ms   differences, where in pulse rate  rate  that is very difficult if   any  to  achieve that accurate. But  who cares  s all is business.  VO2 max  calculation  woww    how  can  you do that  on a  wrist  watch , when we already have problems to find a  VO2 max  with a VO2  equipment, but again  who cares.
  We  sell RQ  values when in fact   nobody  draws  blood and it is RER  which  can be  but under load never is  equal RQ. 
 But    that still does not stop us  to have some critical fun.
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