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juergfeldmann

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 #1 
I like to  throw  a  challenge out  here  for the    very nice  and fast increase in "chefs'  we see  coming out   of the forum  into our  NIRS  kitchen . This is a  assessment done  in cross country  erg   situation. 
 3 MOXYs  . 1 one  quadriceps  one on same leg hamstrings  and one in the upper body triceps.
 Below  the  simple SmO2  overlap  and than  the tHb overlap.
 . Start  cooking and you will find some nice  tasting feedback's  which  are incredible , when you think it is just  based on this simple NIRS  idea .

corss country   ham  quad  and tri smo2.jpg

triceps   ham  quad  thb.jpg 

Here a  back up  of  what we  do since many years  but here from accepted  sources.
 Holmberg   et all
  To bad  that  they   did not used NIRS  for all this great work  in combination with  their  equipment

differetn system cross country.jpg 

limitation of VO2.jpg 


R
emember what  we  do  with NIRS. we look for limiter  and compensator    so look above.
  cardiac limitation , respiratory limitation  muscular  limitation and  coordination limitation. Now   start cooking  with  NIRS  and    exercise physiology.  and  out of the BOX  ideas  .

CraigMahony

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 #2 
None of the chefs have had a go yet so I will have an attempt.

Firstly though it would be interesting to know if the quadriceps muscle was the VL or RF. 
The SmO2 level hardly rises from the starting value in the quads but rises a fair bit in the hamstrings. Therefore it seems to me that the main muscle used is the quadriceps with a lesser contribution from the hamstrings. Additionally, the tHb for the quadriceps stays fairly flat while that of the hamstrings drops, indicating to me that the blood flow is greater to the quadriceps. If we could see OHb v HHb this would be more indicative.

For the quadriceps, the first pair of loads is in the OXY zone. The second pair and third pairs are in the Balanced Zone, although the second pair is balanced at a higher SmO2. The first load of the third pair is also balanced at the highest level but the second load of that pair is slightly less. The remaining loads are DEOXY.

QUADRICEPS
At the end of the first, third, fourth and even a bit at the fifth loads there is a drop in SmO2 rather than the expected rebound. This is then followed by a rebound in SmO2. The drop and rebound of the SmO2 seems to be related to the tHb. The drop in SmO2 occurs when there is an increase in the tHb and the rise in SmO2 occurs when there is a drop in tHb. So it is possible that the Cardiac Output / Blood Pressure is not high at the lower workloads and tHb increases due to a lack of muscle pump during the 1 minute rest breaks. Once in the DEOXY zone BP seems to be high enough and the SMO2 rebounds once the muscular compression drops in the rest periods. During the DEOXY workloads, the tHB rises then drops indicating a blood outflow restriction. So I would say that the limiter is Cardiac Output or possibly insufficient strength causing too much compression.

TRICEPS
SmO2 only goes up for the first load. After the second load it drops with each pair of loadings. The tHb also drops steadily until the last 2 loads where it is rather erratic. The drop of both SmO2 indicate a redirection of blood flow if the triceps is a non involved muscle. Otherwise it is a different story.

HAMSTRINGS
The SmO2 trend is similar to that of the Quadriceps except that the SmO2 level starts higher and increases more during the first 4 work periods. In the DEOXY work periods the hamstrings desaturate much more than the quadriceps, 40 v 25. So the hamstrings are probably contributing more during the DEOXY work periods than they did earlier.
The tHb in the hamstrings drops right from the start. The tHb starts to rebound from the fourth work period on indicating that muscular compression has reduced the blood inflow and when the muscular compression is removed the tHb rebounds higher.

So for me, the limiter is either Cardiac Output and possibly also Muscular Strength. The compensator is the delivery system redirecting blood flow to the working muscles (?).
juergfeldmann

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 #3 
Firstly though it would be interesting to know if the quadriceps muscle was the VL or RF

In cross country  skiing  as well as in  speed skating short track and downhill skiing the VL  seems to have a better feedback  than  the RF  due to  the  different action  we have    compared to the cycling motion   if  athletes  do a  great active  hip flexion in cycling. In the discussed  case it was on a  cross country  erg  so   not   that great as compared  with  real on snow  skiing or  on a  roller ski treadmill, but a great example on how  the  different muscles   may actual work  very differently.

The SmO2 level hardly rises from the starting value in the quads but rises a fair bit in the hamstrings. Therefore it seems to me that the main muscle used is the quadriceps with a lesser contribution from the hamstrings

Great  observation and yes    we see often in  more priority muscle  exactly  what  Craig explains or  in non   or less priority muscles   at that   moment  an increase in SmO2

 Additionally, the tHb for the quadriceps stays fairly flat while that of the hamstrings drops, indicating to me that the blood flow is greater to the quadriceps. If we could see OHb v HHb this would be more indicative.

Absolutely and yes    biased  would   help to see it easier with O2Hb and HHb. 
. Now in this case , as well  HR would be  a nice  feedback ????? as  the  drop in  tHb in the hamstrings  could as well be a  current low   CO  and therefor a  vasoconstriction in less priority muscles  like  at that moment in ham stings  to protect BP.

For the quadriceps   
Yessss


So I would say that the limiter is Cardiac Output or possibly insufficient strength causing too much compression.


What  can I say , when  do you cook  your next  gourmet  meal  and where  !!!!

Triceps

The drop of both SmO2 indicate a redirection of blood flow if the triceps is a non involved muscle. Otherwise it is a different story.


Yes  and  you  have perhaps to make one  small connection   between main menu  quadriceps  and  triceps. Triceps  normally is a very involved muscle in   the  skier  erg, but as you mentioned( Cardiac limitation so  the  delivery system cardiac has no  chance  to   deliver  to  all the possible  optimal muscles  the blood need and the O2  as it  could not  hold the  BP. So in this athlete the cardiac output   forces  the shift of  blood  from upper body  to lower body the legs  compete  with Arms  and legs  win.

Are the arms and legs in competition for cardiac output?

Secher NH, Volianitis S.

Source

The Copenhagen Muscle Research Center, Department of Anesthesia, Rigshospitalet, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.

Abstract

Oxygen transport to working skeletal muscles is challenged during whole-body exercise. In general, arm-cranking exercise elicits a maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) corresponding to approximately 70% of the value reached during leg exercise. However, in arm-trained subjects such as rowers, cross-country skiers, and swimmers, the arm VO2max approaches or surpasses the leg value. Despite this similarity between arm and leg VO2max, when arm exercise is added to leg exercise, VO2max is not markedly elevated, which suggests a central or cardiac limitation. In fact, when intense arm exercise is added to leg exercise, leg blood flow at a given work rate is approximately 10% less than during leg exercise alone. Similarly, when intense leg exercise is added to arm exercise, arm blood flow and muscle oxygenation are reduced by approximately 10%. Such reductions in regional blood flow are mainly attributed to peripheral vasoconstriction induced by the arterial baroreflex to support the prevailing blood pressure. This putative mechanism is also demonstrated when the ability to increase cardiac output is compromised; during exercise, the prevailing blood pressure is established primarily by an increase in cardiac output, but if the contribution of the cardiac output is not sufficient to maintain the preset blood pressure, the arterial baroreflex increases peripheral resistance by augmenting sympathetic activity and restricting blood flow to working skeletal muscles.

PMID:

17019302

[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 



HAMSTRINGS

Yes  and again  go back to your great  quadriceps  observation.  We see an outflow  restriction  so  there is not  an optimal  performance anymore  from the quadriceps  towards  the  end of  the assessment  ( see thee  flatening off the  SmO2  as a sign of  trying at least to balance  the  performance but realy not  contributing much more   now .
and the shifts  to the  hamstrings for more  help.

Now  one  often seen reason.
. Most often what happens  on the erg( but as well in thee field ) is  that they  kill the  quadriceps,  so that the  ROM in the knee   starts  to be reduced  ( as well often seen in speed skating )  and  the athletes believes that he still   moves  up and down, but he moves  the motion to the hip  and has a much more hip  flexion/ extension instead  and knee  flexion/  extension  and therefor  the hamstrings  as a  hip  extensor  starts to be  much more active, as a  sign of a change in  technique in skiing   or other sports  in that mattter from the  quadriceps.


So for me, the limiter is either Cardiac Output and possibly also Muscular Strength. The compensator is the delivery system redirecting blood flow to the working muscles (?).


What  kind of  wine  do you serve   to this great dinner  ????  

Add on . Now   you can plan  the   long term structural  workouts.  Increase cardiac out put.   and you have the intensities and feedback on where to work on the technique  and the key muscle groups  and  for strength likely  improve first   intra muscular  coordination .
As  you may  easy see now  any classical HIIT  would be a planned  failure

 Than think  ahead and  check  how much his  respiratory system  has   space   to accept  a higher O2  extraction from more muscles  and therefor has to  be ready to get rid of more CO2. Otherwise  you may  improve  each  team member separately but once  they are  all in the same boat  the  respiration may  fail  and the ability of each which has improved  can not  be  shown in an  important  event.   How  do you   assess the  space  . Here is  where a  VO2  assessment helps. look  at the VE  at the end of this assessment. Lets  say it is  120  l/ min  RF is  40  so TV  is  3 L. His   VC 6 is 6 l  and his  VC1  is 4.8 L

 Now  you do a respiration step  assessment to look where his   respiratory  coordination  fails  and his VE  ability. You us a normocapnic  hyper  pneu  equipment   use a   TV  of  3 liter  as in the  assessment  and do a  5 min step assessment like for any other muscle . Start   with  25  RF  and increase by 5   every 4 - 5 min  till failure. You can   add  one moxy on his   abdominal muscles and one on his  upper trapezius  or  sternocleido mastoideus  to see, when he  switches  from propriety    to   less priority  or  whether he actually  really uses  first  the  diaphragm mainly  and  up to what  VE.

The   additional activation from the sterno indicates often a  draw  of  blood  from working leg  muscles .

sterno cl and deoxygenation.jpg 



bobbyjobling

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 #4 
Interesting THb response. It appears that this athlete had a very low muscular compression effect on all 3 muscles so CO will have to work harder to maintain BP to vital organs first.

Can a xcontry erg display power generated by the athlete? Do a top xcuntry skier tend to achieve a higher total power or efficiency than a cyclist per HR? Do they have a better SV than the average pro cyclist?

Top professional xcuntry skier and cyclist, do you eventually see the same physiological limiters and compensators? 



juergfeldmann

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 #5 
Hmm  I am not sure  

Interesting THb response. It appears that this athlete had a very low muscular compression effect on all 3 muscles so CO will have to work harder to maintain BP to vital organs first.

I tend to rather agree with Craig, that for example  the quadriceps  has a very  high muscle compression and therefor,  as you can see, we  have a compression outflow restriction during the load  and in the rest  section an occlusion  or pooling outflow.

 The main reason we see this relative often in sports like this  and skating is, that  the  knee motion,   no matter  how  you do it  is  always a  combination  of   MIO  and PLIO metric  muscle  reactions. It is  rarely  ISOmetric  even if  the  knee angle  does not change, as  we often than, like in this case  compensates  with a  ROM in the hip , which than attract  the hamstrings muscles into a higher action.
 Now  as usual  the  reaction in the quadriceps  can be closer viewed    with  a biased  option ,but over time  you will learn to see the biased   pictures by looking at tHb and SmO2  and  you  will  know the  Biased trend  very  easy and fast,  as you see live  the graphs. For the moment it is  just easier to so  how it reacts.
 There  was  always a big discussion  when we  argued  many years back in sports  like speed skating , skiing    downhill skiing  and cross country skiing and even tennis  , that  there  is a often a blood flow restriction , which will create a problem  even  when  VO2  testing shows  a  relative low  CO2  out out  and  a  relative low VO2.
 This is , because  of the  outflow restriction. I will possibly  show over the weekend  the  misconception  of  using  CO2  and O2  ratio  for  RER  and  even using  trends in   CO2   out puts    in VO2 testing  without looking at the outflow  situation.

Now  this will change  very soon as   some  VO2  equipment  from Cosmed  allow a  simultaneous    data collection  of   NIRS   to the VO2  information and this will open a  can of  worms  for many existing theories.   This is  what we  did  so long back  and that's  why we  had so  many critical questions  and nobody really   connected  with our  findings  as  this is  still very  seldom done in research.

 Here a  question. If  I have  in both legs  an outflow restriction  than  where is the   produced CO2  going  , when  we  have no outflow  for some time. What  does  that mean  for the indirect feedback in the mouth

Here   the question in a graph sent to us  from a leading  training center in  Europe  a  few  days  back..Will  set a  full thread on this 

Below  left  and right   leg  tHb reaction.

fethb  strat of   ven ovccluison.jpg 

You can see easy the red  line  that tHb increase.
 Now different options. 
a) increase in CO  so  CO pressure overrules  the muscle compression.
b )  other dilatation stimulates  and they  work as long BP is maintained.
c)  outflow restriction  so pooling of  blood in the legs

Now  how  can we  find out  what is  it ?
 a)  If  CO  " wins  " we can look as well at  HR reaction  and   the reaction in the non priority  muscle. If  CO  can  afford  to open  the leg   vascularisation and we still have an increase in tHb in the nonpriority  muscle,  than we  are  pretty  sure  CO is  strong enough to maintain BP  as  you would not open up  in the upper and lower body.
b )  same   picture  to look  for
c)   If  they  take  the   after  calibration time  we would see,   as they  stop, a  drop in tHb  as a sign of a pooling outflow  so  even with  one MOXY possible.
 C 1) or   one MOXY  we can look at the biased  trend from the time  tHb increased  to see, weather the increase in tHb is  mainly  due  to HHb pooling, as  there is a restricted  outflow.  So let's  do  that.   see the graphs below  and   try to imagine  what happens, when a big part of the  blood  in the legs have been  restricted to move back  towards  the  right ventricle  and the lungs  to try to get rid  of CO2  and  try  to be reload  O2.
  What  would we   expect in the  VO2 mask   to see. ??  This  as you can see in a hard load  so  lots  of  chances  to  have a higher H +  so higher  CO2  production and  as well a higher O2 need. (  exception you believe in  anaerobic  and  for sure a higher  VO2 /.So  CO2   would go  up  O2  use  down    so RER  up  to 1   and  perhaps  above. ???

Sorry  VO2 users   we need  your help  to  get the picture  what happens here  with CO2  Even more  fun with lactate trends   at the  end of  the load  and   minutes later.      The answer  may come in another thread. 


bias  right closer view  on load occ.jpg

Above the  right  trend
 bellow  the left  trend

bias  left increase thb  occl..jpg 


Now to finish  this  blood flow restriction thoughts, There are slowly   studies  coming up   supporting our  notion . Here  one  nice one.


Evidence for restricted muscle blood flow during speed skating.

Foster C, Rundell KW, Snyder AC, Stray-Gundersen J, Kemkers G, Thometz N, Broker J, Knapp E.

Source

University of Wisconsin-LaCrosse, 54601, USA. foster@mail.uwlax.edu

Abstract

INTRODUCTION:

We have previously hypothesized restricted muscle blood flow during speed skating, secondary to the high intramuscular forces intrinsic to the unique posture assumed by speed skaters and to the prolonged duty cycle of the skating stroke.

METHODS:

To test this hypothesis, we studied speed skaters (N = 10) during submaximal and maximal cycling and in-line skating, in both low (knee angle = 107 degrees) and high (knee angle = 112 degrees) skating positions (CE vs SkL vs SkH). Supportive experiments evaluated muscle desaturation and lactate accumulation during on-ice speed skating and muscle desaturation during static exercise at different joint positions.

RESULTS:

Consistent with the hypothesis were reductions during skating in VO2peak (4.28 vs 3.83 vs 4.26 L x min(-1)), the VO2 at 4 mmol x L(-1) blood lactate (3.38 vs 1.93 vs 3.31 L x min(-1)), and cardiac output during maximal exercise (33.2 vs 25.3 vs 25.6 L x min(-1)). The reduction in maximal cardiac output was not attributable to differences in HRmax (197 vs 192 vs 193 b x min(-1)) but to a reduction in SVmax (172 vs 135 vs 134 mL x beat(-1)). The reduction in SV appeared to be related to an increased calculated systemic vascular resistance (354 vs 483 vs 453 dynes x s(-1) x cm(-1)). During maximal skating there was also a greater % O2 desaturation of the vastus lateralis based on near infrared spectrophotometry (50.3 vs 74.9 vs 60.4% of maximal desaturation during cuff ischemia). The results were supported by greater desaturation with smaller knee angles during static exercise and by greater desaturation and accelerated blood lactate accumulation during on-ice speed skating in the low vs high position. The results of this study support the hypothesis that physiological responses during speed skating are dominated by restriction of blood flow, attributable either to high intramuscular forces, the long duty cycle of the skating stroke, or both.

PMID:

10527316

[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  it  always feels  great to see   studies  coming out  as sometimes  we believe we  are nuts  to have so many  opposing ideas  to the  classical  ideas  I  and we all learn  still daily.  Too bad  that they  still have a problem to  let go the  4 mmol as they missed some  fun section in  their  great data  collection.

More  fun to come  as usual.



bobbyjobling

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 #6 
I agree that we have an outflow restriction in the quadriceps but isn't this restrictions in this case caused primarily by body position instead of muscle compression? THb level appears not to be effected by the start of each load, it looks stable and maybe already effected by some outflow restriction.
But it could just be a miss interpretation on my side as I'm viewing the chart on my phone and I don't know the setup of this 5-1-5
juergfeldmann

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 #7 
Help  what you mean
  but isn't this restrictions in this case caused primarily by body position instead of muscle compression?

 he is doing   a  kind of a  squatting motion on the  skier  erg  and as  such yes  the body position ( his  knee  angel  will create the  restrictions he  will have a  very intense   quadriceps  activity. As  such  the body position is not passive like on an inversion table  or  when we  create a  position  with  restriction of blood flow  for exampel in ether   femoral  arterial . This is  a  body position in a very high  active  muscle contraction mode  and a high demand of  O2  as  such  and  as well a high  CO2  release  if possible.  to stray in a    medium  squatting position  with some mio  and plio  motion is a hard  position  to be  and  you will very fast  feel  that you need   energy O2  but as well very fast,  that you  will  not have  an optimal  blood flow ( outflow )   Try it out. 
bobbyjobling

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Posts: 217
 #8 
Ah that would explains what I see, thanks Juerg [smile]
juergfeldmann

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 #9 
Bobby  you are  more than  welcome  and I like to have  you in  our  kitchen .  and I have to get more  thoughts  to your post 

 Can a xcontry erg display power generated by the athlete? Do a top xcuntry skier tend to achieve a higher total power or efficiency than a cyclist per HR? Do they have a better SV than the average pro cyclist?

Top professional xcuntry skier and cyclist, do you eventually see the same physiological limiters and compensators? 


Can a xcontry erg display power generated by the athlete?
Different systems  are available  and yes like in a  rowing  erg  or kayaking  erg  we  can as  well see the  objective  load  in  wattage  or units  they like to use.

Do a top xcuntry skier tend to achieve a higher total power or efficiency than a cyclist per HR?
 I am  sure  certain people will compare  that  but the  type  of muscle work in cross country  skiing  compared  to cycling is very different .  Same is  true  when we look at rowing.


Do they have a better SV than the average pro cyclist?
What  is  average. What we know  from physiological   parameters  is, that  cross country  skier  tend to be besides rower in the group  with   very high VE  and very high  CO  compared  to   basilica  any other sport.
This is  not surprising, when we look the  motions and the  total involvement of    the body in most   cases.
What we see when we  do  real  physiological testing  so not looking  at absolute   peak values but what happens before we overload the full team is, that  top  rowers and top  cross country  skiers   often have a   cardiac  or a  respiratory limitation  due to the  fact, that their    muscular  ability  could  take  an incredible  amount of   O2   if  they could deliver. So CO is often one of the  limiter in this sports in top  athletes with  respiratory  limitation most often overlooked  or not  even accepted  as a  possible limitation. And  this    for both option  respiratory  metaboreflex and actual   respiratory  VE  limitation. Some may ask  the  critical  question  why   world  class  cross country  skier have the highest   amount of  allowed  exemption  for  respiratory    aids  die to  what some call exercise   induced  asthma. ???? as well a   hypoxic   signs   at  high intensity  SpO2  low  despite   not in altitude. If  they start  in a few years  to look at NIRS  reactions  than  the latter will show up  ass  what in SmO2  and  tHb  reaction ?  There is an   incredible  disconnection between    lab  exercise  scientist  and  with    advanced coaches  already  do since years  with NIRS. Here  an example of  the discretion.

cc biathlon.jpg 
 look  at the  interesting  statement  of this study  presents  the ....  Duncan Clark  and  Marcel L  did in this   country , where this study  was done many years before  not  just NIRS  ( Portamon  tests,  but  had  as well VO2   and  Physioflow  in their  data collection on roller skis  on the road , some may remember the picture we  showed. But 
 we love  this  case study  as it gives  our crazy ideas some more  value,  does  it ?  Now  cross country    and a  such  swimming  changes   a lot  over the years  as  the ability to improve  arm   physiological    values  enormously  and  for sure with the  progress in skating technique   we see the risk of a  sleeping giant   more and more often.


out  of Holmberg  and Calbet

upper body developpment.jpg 


So  Bobby  to your  great  observation

THb level appears not to be effected by the start of each load, it looks stable and maybe already effected by some outflow restriction. 

Craig  gave  the  hint  on this   as well.
 tHb  can increase as a summary  due  to  either    " win " of  CO  or vasodilatation over  muscle compression or   protective vasoconstriction.
or  as an outflow restriction. In our   case in the   skier  we have a  cardiac limiter  and a  strength limiter  but   dangerous   as  strength limiter  and cardiac limiter  could  show  and accumulation of  compression and vasoconstriction, but often the " help " of a strength limitation  so   compression  helps  to reduce  work   or  better,vasoconstriction  we would see   due to CO limitation.  the cardiac  work  as   the compression maintains  the BP  , The   problem shows  up  when we suddenly  stop .   why ?
 So in the  cross country   assessment ERG  we have  very early on in this skier a sign of a cardiac limiter  as he   involves  a lot of muscles,   but does not have  a big enough CO  to really be able to  afford  this. 

sebo2000

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 #10 

I absolutely love analyzing/reading those examples, Since I’m not expert at cross-country skiing, I was concentrating at what part participates and when he changes technique due to being tired.

 Theoretical question: sorry if it sounds stupid. What would happen if he would cut load on his triceps by 50%, would his quads recover and potentially let him go faster or for loner in race situation? I said that without having clue about cross country skinning dynamics, I’m just wondering what would be best “race recovery reaction” for cx skiers?

 Please correct me if I’m wrong about when this happened:

Seems like he is ok until part in red circle, it seems he added more Triceps action in that set and that caused his hamstrings to shut down, I can see initial downward tHb trend indicating weak CO so your analysis is spot on, but I’m just curious about how to extend the run in race situation with cardiac limiter.

  CxSki.JPG 


juergfeldmann

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 #11 
First  I hooe  at least  on this  forum ,

 Theoretical question: sorry if it sounds stupid. What would happen if he would cut load on his triceps by 50%, would his quads recover and potentially let him go faster or for loner in race situation?
 There are  never  stupid  questions. It may just be  that i have  no  good answer  so I may  give  a stupid  answer   which   I have  than to try o correct iy.
So no   the point you make is   great

The whole discussion we have  with VL  overloaded  and RF  not integrated   enough is  exactly in  the same directions.  Yes in cross country  skiing when we  reach delivery limitation and we see blood shift  from arms to legs  than  it may be  late  but  no too late. The   body on it self shifts  to allow  more blood to the more important leg muscles. That  said  you can reverse it and shift  blood from the legs  to the arms   by  doing more upper body  work.
 The classic ideas tells  us it is not  possible but   we   looked  at that in  wheel chair  athletes  and how  it  would influence the blood  flow  from the non active  legs  to the arms  as wlel many man years back  we looked at lactate in arms  and legs  in wheel chair  athletes.  With the winner of  the new  York  marathon  winner  at that  time in Mallorca in a  training camp Using lactate  to shuttle  energy instead of believing it may kill performance..
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