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thigger

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Posts: 37
 #1 
20151113 moxy 515.png Hi,

Just starting with the Moxy - I've bought it for use myself and with members of my training group. I'm an intensive care physician with a background in physiology so reasonably happy with the concepts around Moxy.

I've just tried a 5-1-5 on myself, steps at 45%/65%/85%/105%/130% (I've just realised that it should have been 125%!). It's a cold day (hailing outside my garage) so I wasn't surprised that it seemed to take a while for me to warm up, but I was surprised that on my first 'recovery level' interval the SmO2 plummeted and never really got back above 35%. This continued, with me finishing my 85% intervals with single digit SmO2 - and the 105% ones being in single digits almost the whole way! The 130% one I probably could have continued for longer, but let myself give up after a minute as I knew there was no way I'd manage 5.

I probably wasn't in the best shape for an assessment today; a bit dehydrated after a rich meal and some wine (not a lot!) last night - and kids keeping me up in the night - but the intervals didn't seem that hard. Any ideas why the SmO2 is so low? I also can't quite understand the pattern of tHb in the recovery minutes - I was sat with my pedal at 6 o'clock (Moxy on VL) - was I tensing my leg too much? It's a tri-bike so difficult to keep all your weight on the saddle.

Any advice/help with interpretation greatly appreciated. One of my training partners has agreed to be my next guinea-pig so I'm going to see how his assessment differs from mine, and I'll probably do another myself to try to work out why this one seems so odd. Or do I have some strange limiter? (delivery by the looks of it?)

Thanks

 
Attached Files
csv 20151113_moxy_tl515.csv (61.78 KB, 16 views)
csv Tom_-_R01_-_Moxy_5-1-5_-_2015-11-13-02-37-47.3dp.csv (202.32 KB, 15 views)

thigger

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Posts: 37
 #2 
Looking around the forum I'm also confused at the tHB trace being 'the wrong way round'. Other ones I've seen show tHB increasing during recovery, which makes sense to me as vasodilatation in response to the interval, with it dropping during the interval due to muscular contraction. Why is mine the other way?
Ruud_G

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 #3 
Did you have your leg up or down when recovering? When down vasoconstriction might play a role to maintain BP over a relatively "weak" cardiovascular system (mind the word "might")
thigger

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 #4 
For recovery that leg was down, pedal at 6 o'clock. That meant I was putting a little bit of weight on it, but I tried to minimise it. I think next time I'll try having it at 12.
Ruud_G

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 #5 
At 12 high chance you might see something different [wink]
thigger

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 #6 
Tried a running 5-1 today (I didn't repeat steps as I wasn't sure where I'd find different 'zones' so wanted to cover more). Unfortunately due to sweat the moxy started to flap about during the penultimate 5 minute segment, and came off at the end - though I was about to give up anyway!

20151114 moxy running 51.png  Moxy on VL again; this time it seems much more like a 'normal' trace although I still end up with very low values towards the end. Do the extremely low SmO2 values indicate something strange about my physiology? Otherwise it looks like I would expect. The only thing I don't quite understand is that the peak SmO2 was actually reached just as each interval started - I assume that's due to muscle squeezing effects reducing the amount of venous blood in the muscle?

I went on to mess around on the bike and did a few ramp tests with the moxy in different places - putting it on the other leg VL produced almost identical results to yesterday's bike 5-1-5 (ie very low SmO2 even at 50%FTP). On the arm (extensor compartment of forearm) I had the expected results of a fairly static SmO2 until very high workloads when it started to dip.

Lastly I tried vastus medialis, with the surprise result of an initial 90% SmO2 and only dropping to the 40s with exercise - much like the results I've seen from everyone else using VL. Is my VL doing something funny?

Unfortunately Perfpro misbehaved during the running so I don't have a complete set of data in one file - though I had my Garmin recording HR and running pace/bike power so in theory it could be put back together.

 
Attached Files
csv 20151114_moxy_tl51run_random_cycle.csv (86.27 KB, 16 views)

Ruud_G

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Posts: 279
 #7 
In general the lower (meaning downward towards the knee), the lower SmO2 values I get on the VL. Also the more shifting to the middle shows these lower results on the VL. Its nice to make a drawing of your legs with some reference points / dots of the general level of SmO2 you observe [wink]
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #8 
thigger. I will make a specila  section with yoru  running and biking  data.
 Why:
 because you are perfectly normal  and have a  very  lucky situation, that your  body reacts  accordingly  to physiological demands  and  options  to react.
 One more  part will be fun to see but  please  do not tell it here yet.
 Ruuds  point of  6  and 12 o clock position  when  you stop  during a bike workout. You do not have to  do a full test  just a workout  where you once in a while in a decent load  60 + %  of your  FTP  stop  and once you have   the MOXY leg on 6  an the next  time on  12  o  clock position and you repeat  this a few  times  to see, whether the r trend is repeatable if there is a trend.  I will   show  on your example the weakness  and or the strength of MOXY  result  when using one only  and the options  to try to answer   possible  directions  when we have to opposing  outcomes  or interpretations. Juts to keep you relaxed.
 SmO2  levels mean nothing other  as that the muscle you  had MOXY on  was very  good engaged in this  activity  he had  to do. He  is in great shape  when it comes  to utilization  but he  may have  some  bad  team members  who can not optimal keep up  with  delivery. So  he  had a great initial  bank account  but than  had  to spent much more   than  he earned  or  got  delivered  so  you use it  instantly  and than find a perfect balance between delivery  and utilization on a  low level  of SmO2.
. Remember. Your body will not allow   to  drop below a  critical ATP level. If  it is getting tight on  energy demand  you will not try to use more and more ATP  rather you will try  on how to avoid  further ATP in this muscle ( Controlled  over the CG  Brian or central governor. Or  as Conett and his group  put  it. 

Plan is a match between ATP supply and demand-by

decreasing ATP consumption
rather than by
increasing ATP production.

thigger

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Posts: 37
 #9 
I've tried the experiment you and Ruud suggested; the results were not quite what I expected but I think I can interpret it - let me know when it's safe to post it!

I guess I'm just interested in the extremely low SmO2 as to me it suggests that delivery is an important limiter and I can do something about it? (It might also explain why almost invariably it's burning in my thighs that slows me down!) I'm not entirely sure how best to improve it but I'll be digging through this forum and other sources of knowledge to help me!

Thanks for looking at this! The Moxy seems a fascinating tool. I'm testing a friend tomorrow.
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