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Marcel

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 #1 
Hello, here is a couple of snippets from different training sessions over the last few weeks. I would appreciate some feedback to if my interpretation is correct or incorrect.

When you look at the following two picture and you view the overall trend of thb then it has an upward trend. That is telling me that CO or Stroke volume has no problem, Smo2 desaturates well so utilisation is ok.

Rossfeld Moxy.jpg  classic unternberg lbp.jpg  The next few pictures is more interesting and confirms to me that things from the cardiac side is good, initial drop with Smo2 and then at some poin as SmO2 drop further blood flow increases,



skating.jpg    classic.jpg below you can see nicely  where thb rebounds way before smo2 hits bottom. skate2.jpg    What I am stuck at is without doing a 5/1/5 assessment is it possible to figuring out what my limitation is by looking at these pictures. There is the initial compression that Juerg had talked about in on of the other threads (I think thats whats going on and then then there is enough pressure for the blood flow to improve.   But even though tHB suddenly increases, Smo2 continues to drop, it only rises because I am skiing downhill again and it has time to recover. So perhaps not getting enough O2????


Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #2 
Marcel incredible job sent me csv  files    if possible  so I can do some additional   assessments on it . Will be fun over the weekend
Marcel

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 #3 
Ill need to dig around, these are all screen shots from random files, ill send two or three. Here some more interesting shots.

This the overall view from a interval session done at around FEI intensity. Every second loop is the same loop. rest periods varied a bit. 
skate4.jpg 
Here a closer look at one of the longer intervals from above. think it from the 5th interval. The first circle you have the thb following the Smo2 curve. So muscle compression overpowering thb? then it seems at some point which is indicated by the second circle even though smo2 drops thb increases with little influence from the muscle. Am i interpreting this right? So I either need a technique change so that the pressure is release of one side to the other or a long enough downhill recovery so that tHB can take over, or is it something else?
skate3.jpg  Here one very last picture not relate to the above where you can clearly see as Smo2 drops it is slightly disrupted by either the gradient slightly changes, technique, breathing?? and that is enough to push thb in another direction. 
skate6.jpg      



Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #4 
Marcel
great  info , will look at it  and it will take a little bit longer as I have to get used on the  graphs. That's why  for me it is easier  when I have csv files  as I can  look at  super fast and overlap any situation easy to compare  and blow it up  or make is  smaller. So please give me some time  and I for sure will  have fun.
 I will give you  either  a  mail ,if it is  some very  specific   situation  only interesting for you for training  and as long it is  simply MOXY interpretation  of  files  I  love to show it on here.
 Thanks again Marcel  and that is exactly  what you will end up  with . In the field   during a race  analyze    what was  the limitation in this race  and during a  workout  how can I climb  with the same speed  more efficient  a hill or  what position downhill is  most   efficient  for  recovering the muscle groups I may need in the next section of the race.
 In  a  sport  where we have direct power feedback like rowing or kayaking or  cycling  we  have some  major advantages. We have  actual metrics  combined  with physiological trends.
 This is the fastest  and  easiest  way to    see, whether we  have a cardiac  limitation.
   In a  , ( yes I will take some heat on that )  brainless step test - including our own 5/1/5   we  can't really see optimal the   limiter  if  it is the cardiac system.
 Question of the weekend   ? Why ?
There are some  fascinating studies  done    with Brain oxygenation       with NIRS  showing some very fascinating reactions between  a step test  all out load  and a  real  race situation.
 What  could the result have been ?
 In cycling we did  some great race testing, where we  can find  in a  race or in a  workout the limiter  and  the compensator.We have  some older  results  with Portamon  from  a  World cup race   situation  . Th beauty  here is, that we  than  can concentrate  on the  other   situations of  respiratory options  but as well O2  shift   in the body itself.
 Cross country skiing is   one of the more fascinating    situations.

 Here  ( sorry )  some more graphs  as  many   readers ask  for example  so they can learn  from the pictures. 1.  here a  discussion you can see, where and why  NIRS  had  an incredible future in quality of workouts   during the workout as feed backs. We  can assess   muscular dysbalance  and or  muscular disharmony  and  can correct as we go.
   here  a  really fun reading  who helped us  to  feel comfortable n what we see  and  how we  explain it.

Are the arms and legs in competition for cardiac output?

Secher NH, Volianitis S.

Source

The Copenhagen Muscle Research Center, Department of Anesthesia, Rigshospitalet, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.

Abstract

Oxygen transport to working skeletal muscles is challenged during whole-body exercise. In general, arm-cranking exercise elicits a maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) corresponding to approximately 70% of the value reached during leg exercise. However, in arm-trained subjects such as rowers, cross-country skiers, and swimmers, the arm VO2max approaches or surpasses the leg value. Despite this similarity between arm and leg VO2max, when arm exercise is added to leg exercise, VO2max is not markedly elevated, which suggests a central or cardiac limitation. In fact, when intense arm exercise is added to leg exercise, leg blood flow at a given work rate is approximately 10% less than during leg exercise alone. Similarly, when intense leg exercise is added to arm exercise, arm blood flow and muscle oxygenation are reduced by approximately 10%. Such reductions in regional blood flow are mainly attributed to peripheral vasoconstriction induced by the arterial baroreflex to support the prevailing blood pressure. This putative mechanism is also demonstrated when the ability to increase cardiac output is compromised; during exercise, the prevailing blood pressure is established primarily by an increase in cardiac output, but if the contribution of the cardiac output is not sufficient to maintain the preset blood pressure, the arterial baroreflex increases peripheral resistance by augmenting sympathetic activity and restricting blood flow to working skeletal muscles.

Now here first  a data collection courtesy to the USA  Army  Ft. Bragg who invited us  for a  seminar. I just like to show the graph . 2  muscle groups  an involved  and a noninvolved  and  an assessment on the bike. You discuss for yourself.
3 x  inv noninv.jpg 
 The next is a  nice  feedback  from a cross country  assessment  sent ot us  by Roger   from a cross country client.
 Three diffent moxys. 1  on a  quadriceps  a second on a  hamstrings  same leg  and a third on an arm Triceps  same side.
ski erg tHb 2 legs   and one upper body muscle.jpg 


And here a  great   close shot  sent to us  from an on ski testing  from  our friends  from Norway.
 Now this is a  tricky one but  many  of you guys are getting so good  that  you now  can solve this    question. Look at the  SmO2  and the tHb  and what  would that explain  as a limitation in that section for the race  or  workout ?

NW a close look thb smo2.jpg  Marcel ,will be back  as you sent me  some great learning tools  to   see what you have  done. Thanks so much  for offering  here your  datas  to discuss  with each other.

Marcel

Development Team Member
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Posts: 54
 #5 
Juerg the picture you posted of the thb comparison of placement on the quads hamstrings and triceps made me dig up this picture.

Placement was the tricep, double pole on skis. compare this with leg mount on another session with the 2nd picture below. Thb is in the opposite direction. Does it have to do with weight bearing. So when I relax my arms there is no weight on them but on the legs the muscle always has some kind of tension to support the body?
arm mount double pole.jpg 
classic unternberg lbp.jpg

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #6 
Marcel  what can I say  just YES.
 And there is  in a full load workout  when you do   one skate ski so on each leg motion a double pull in  all out situation a shift of   tHb as well  and it  has to do with the problem   that so many muscles  are involved  so that the cardiac out put  can't sustain the needed  pressure  and you will shift blood  from one area to the other over tHb reactions or better  blood pressure reactions  to maintain  central BP This is the   nice    study  by Holmberg    with the change in   vascular diameter  due to   control of BP. Here   and it  will make  easy sense  now  for you.
holmberg.jpg

cardiac and skiing.jpg


CO  can't cover.jpg

CO and blood flow.jpg

double pole versusu diag.jpg

DanieleM

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Posts: 264
 #7 
Marcel,
hope you don't mind my quick feedback.

First, my opinion on one of the workout posted by Juerg:
occlu.png 
This trend should come from a venous occlusion and it seems to be present on some your graph:
marcel.jpg  Daniele

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #8 
Daniele  thanks  as you  start to use the forum as we  where hoping for . Not a  monologue  or a cookbook but a  discussion as there are  different options  and brains  working in this field.
 I will be back on this one later     of the day.
Marcel

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 #9 
Hey Daniele, thank you so much for your input, I have no problem with any reader giving comments on my graphs, right or wrong we all learn that way.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #10 
Okay  I like to give it a shot here  to get   to the next step in the interpretation options with MOXY.
 Please come back If  I get lost  so we  can get   back and re-discuss it. I  will try to make it  simple ( TRY ).
1. There are ( not  always )  2  main section we look at .
a)  local   reactions
b)  systemic reactions.
 Local reactions take place immediately, as it is where we  have a direct feedback  from MOXY.
 Systemic reactions  have a  lag  time.
Here 2  graphs we  will come  back later.
 One is a local reaction  and one is a systemic reaction and this  from the same world  class cyclists  in the same  5/1/5  assessment ( Courtesy  of the Red Bull  seminar with Per Lundstrom in Santa Monica    head quarter. )

D rest strat thb smo2 symm.jpg 
D rest end thb smo2.jpg 


So here is a small   "problem" . -  some systemic  reactions  or  ongoing   and than stop   and some systemic reactions  are  not yet  active  and start  delayed. ( see  one  example above  with a delayed  reactions of a vasoconstriction
  Now  let's stay on that one.
 Why would we have a delayed  vasoconstriction  after we stopped?.
 Would we not  expect  ( as  we  most often see ) an increase in tHb as the muscle contraction ( compression ) is  gone ?.
moxy danexpl.jpg  This is the same question Daniele  points  out in one  info  from Marcels  data.( See above)

Now in  some cases , and we  are lucky we  actually  can show them  due to  the  very big  sampling rates we have  over the  last 10 years over the whole spectrum of people. We   can show the  above reaction.
 Here  what happens.
 In  very  great  endurance trained athletes.
 Mainly  cross country skiers  and  triathletes  and Pro tour  cyclists, the body got  thanks to  incredible great  training  and sometimes combined  with some  great pharmacological help?? so  good  in vascularisation density as well as mitochondrial density, that the delivery systems  like cardio pulmonary systems  simply has no chance  to   delivery the   O2  which could  be used in all the muscles.
 So the CO ( as we showed    from Holmberg's great paper . Is  simply   to weak to maintain blood pressure    in all the    circulation  and still have a sufficient  one  for the central system.
 So  already very early on :  1961
marshall sleeping giant  BP.jpg 

We had this  interesting information.
 So  as we now go  hard  out in a race  and or  in a  5/1/5    and than suddenly stop,  End of a cross country  race  or  1 min break in a 5/1?5  we have the risk, that due to the  end of  all muscle contraction   and the high CO2  often in that stage   we  would have  an incredible opening of the  vascular systems  and the amount of blood pressure  from the existing CO  simply is not able to  maintain  the needed pressure.
 So we have 2 main reactions.
   Go flat to the ground and it is  nowhere so common to see absolutely    perfect endurance athletes going flat on the ground like  in cross country  skiing  ( biathlon ) as well  but as well as in triathlon  at the end. Flat  helps  BP    SV goes up  and  easier  to maintain BP. The second  reactions you see  above  or  with Marcel is a  slightly delayed   vasoconstriction reaction in the    muscles  so tHb  drops    despite  SmO2  is increasing. ( For cook book believer  the  lag time is  30 +0- sec )
Hope above explanation makes  sense. and I will next show a difference between  3  cross country skier  A  top athlete  like Marcel  or  one  form Norway  and  one   good skier  from USA . You than  find out  what the limitation is  in both    resp. why we see  what we  may see.
 Unreal seen to the unseen real ( old Greek  materialism) that's  what MOXY makes so fascinating  but as well so frustrating for physical believers in performance    versus physiological reactions.


blood vessels   BP  adjust ment.jpg

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #11 
Okay, like to go back to  the great  info  and discussion Marcel started.
. Summary where we stand.
 a) in  sports  with a  high %  of   muscle involvement  like  cross country skiing we have to look at  local limitations  but have a swell the   information on systemic limitations.
 We used the nice example  from Red Bull seminar   where we  had a  world class cyclists  showing during the same assessment a local reaction ( immediately in the  1 min rest [wink] and  at the end a systemic  protection of  BP  in the one min rest. So here  a long awaited  information I ow  to Roger  as he had a  skier testing a 5/1/5  on a  ski ergo meter.

 It is a wonder full example  to show  how incredible a  human body  reacts  and why  at least I have a problem to  produce a cook book  or even  believe , that  we can use a NIRS trend  to  combine  with any  classical  ideas  just like this. Yes  all what we  did can easy combine  with MOXY but we may have to look it somewhat different. So here  some ideas  to look at.

Here  first the  "Utilization"  information.
  ski erg smo2 2 legs  one upper body.jpg 
1  is triceps
2 is  RF ( quadriceps )
3 is  hamstrings
 Now  here the  "Delivery "  trend feedback.
ski erg tHb 2 legs   and one upper body muscle.jpg 
As you can see  three very different  " Delivery scenarios during the same workout  . As well   different utilization trends.. So it is very difficult  to assume, which  muscle  actually is   creating the ATP  with  what energy sources  besides, that all will use ultimately  O2  as  optimal as possible
. The question is, how  we " deliver" the O2  to this muscles  and the 1 min rest in between  may give  us some interesting indication  what is going on.
 So let's  give it a  closer look  at the delivery options , which than we may explain some of the utilization reactions.
 Here  let's look the  two leg muscles   quadriceps  and hamstrings  same side.

skiing erg RF  ham.jpg  What is  very different here in the reaction in the 1 min rest  and  what  could be the reasons. ?

Marcel

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Posts: 54
 #12 
So in the last graph quads and hamstrings have opposite reaction, is this due to the one muscle group being more actively involved. Hamstring are being used less, so less desaturation and thus also much less blood flow to them because the quads needs it more,  quads being used more and have a higher demand for  O2. Is there a greater blood flow restriction to the Hamstrings? Only during the rest when the hamstrings are relaxed they get some blood back?
DanieleM

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Posts: 264
 #13 
Just to add some thoughts to Marcel's one.
It looks like the compression on the quads is the winning factor. And thb rebounds as expected at rest. In The harmstrings instead it seems like there is no compression factor, thb rises during load, but i cannot figure out why it drops at rest.

Daniele
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #14 
Just to make it sure in the tHb   graph. RF  = Rectus femoris  and is the darker brown. H = Hamstrings and is the more  yellow looking brown in the graph. Both  feed backs are great as that is  exactly  what we have to do  to  get a  great  feedback from NIRS.
 Remember again.
 tHb  can have a direct reaction meaning  compression due to contraction  is on  of the reasons  what tHb  can change fast.
 Or it  can be a delayed  systemic reaction  or a  ongoing systemic reaction.
 Example  is  CO2    high due to respiratory limitation. . So as we  stop we  get rid of  muscle contraction    and tHb  will immediately increase. If  we  have  at the same time a high CO2  which  creates a  systemic vasodilatation than we add  to the increase in tHb  due  to  the non  existing muscle contraction and additional opening of  blood vessels  and tHb  will go even higher.
. Now in case   of a   far to extensive  blood vessel  density  and too many  muscle groups involved this  extreme  opening  can not  be  that great  for BP  and we will see a delayed  but clear drop in tHb in some areas of the body , upper or lower  body  , to maintain BP  as in the   example of  our  cyclists.
 . Now  in this case here  with two leg muscles  we have some good  hints  from both  Marcel  and  Daniele. I am not sure  whether  Daniele    mixed  H  and RF ?

RF  thb  smo2  all.jpg   No  this is   looking just  at the quadriceps SmO2  and tHb.
 and   below a very close   look at the  trend.

RF  thb  smo2  Very close look    occlusiomall.jpg

DanieleM

Development Team Member
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Posts: 264
 #15 
Juerg, you're right...I've mixed H and RF in my previous reply..sorry
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