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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #1 
Under feedback now I like to give the increasing number of New MOXY owners a chance to ask questions  and wee try to answer them as good as possible or will dig into them to find some answers or open  more questions.
 On the other side I will use ( when I get permission ) to show some of the now ongoing feed backs of test I am getting to my e mail.
 New MOXY users can sent their first assessment and test to either :
 Juergfeldmann@hotmail.com or to eukholdings@gmail.com  and we will try to  give you as much feedback as possible on your start with the MOXY.
 For people who like to have some more guidance  you can go over eukholdings@gmail.com as they offer a  wide  variety of services  station in Europe but  you can sent and request services  world wide.
The MOXY community will grow rapidly over the next few weeks and this will help all of us to come up with much more information than ever before.
 We will  create some " study groups " out of the feed backs and will regularly try to keep you informed here of problems we see, suggestions we get and improvements we try to come up with.
 You as a regular reader and as a new MOXY user  will and can be a big part of an interesting new area of assessments and training feed backs by combining your experience and skills with some of our crazy ideas  and some  more critical look on what we learned  and repeated in the past with very little critical  observation whether what we see is true.
 This leads us back to one of our start slogans from the old Greek philosophy.
 The unseen real and the unreal seen.
 Give it some thoughts as we go ahead into a great new time. Juerg
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
Here  one of the many test samples I got sent over the last few days.
 This is a great example of a center using our IPAHR idea and they did 2 tests. A first test  followed by a muscular overload after we discussed that I think the muscular system is the limitation and cardiac and resp are compensator. So we  overloaded the muscular system and the second test showed this incredible interesting reaction.
 Yes we had as well VO2  info's  and lactate info's but  even if we would have used MOXY only we    would have had the same information in this case. Have  fun to  think through it . Thanks for this great feedback and test info.

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
" Why are you still sampling lactate ? How does it serve the assessment / solution ?
> In simplest terms possible, can you explain the value on its own and combined to other direct/indirect measures? "

" combined to other direct/indirect measures? "
This part is in fact very interesting and it may be worth while for  new MOXY users to play a little bit around to  get the  security you need to argue with  NIRS opponents  and or people really never used NIRS but desperately defending the lactate threshold idea.

 Options you  have:
 a)  3 min step versus  5 min step versus 5/1/5 ( see some pics below.)
 This will show the lag time and the  unfortunate situation lactate testing creates  by this lag time and the problem , that it  is very difficult to use the  lactate values  to make any conclusion.
b)Same problem with VO2 as a value do to the discussed Slow VO2  component.
 If you look in other threads on the 5/1/5 assessment you can see, what we mean with Slow VO2 component.
 VO2  and lactate are  so called indirect in-formations as is FeO2  % and EtCO2.
 All of this  assessments ( data's ) have the open question on the time lag and the time needed to have a value close enough to the actual value on the  or in the  working muscle area.
 Think about lactate and its  properties and now you follow its journey from a calf muscle to the finger tip.
 What happ3ens under way to the test site ????
 Same  fro the O2 and CO2  reactions intracellular to the  mouth piece of your VO2 mask.
 This lag time can be very different and in fact certain intervention ( voluntary or as a normal physiological reaction due to compensator and Limiter ) completely change the  interpretation but  often not the trend in the indirect information values.
 One of the most  intriguing discussion is the value of metabolic substrate use in a step test , where we use RER and equal it to RQ without any critical thoughts on the possibly interference in the RER value due to different respiratory reactions and or bio availability reaction of O2.
 In simple terms. MOXY, RF, HR are 3 direct feedback physiological bio markers, easy to use affordable and the future in  feed backs in the lab but for sure in the field and during workouts.
 The dream of the BIO watch and as you can see with the FR 70  plus MOXY you are  super close to this bio watch already. When you now use your Bio harness you are basically there.

You can make an interesting  case study by biking or running an intensity , where you establish a metabolic situation , where lactate is  available  when you test it. Some would say  you run on your MAX Lass. Now  : ( if your respiratory system is not the limiter )  than you have a small window, where you can play with respiration by either increasing or decreasing your TV ( Fit Mate users can see it by observing VE and RF live. Bio Harness users, who have the system for processed breathing wave  can see it at the amplitude of the breathing wave.
 . MOXY users will have a direct feedback  in the SmO2 values.
 and when you take lactate, once you establish a new respiratory pattern and you can maintain it for 4 - 6 min you will see some interesting changes in lactate values and the so called MAX Lass is suddenly no more MAX Lass despite no change in Wattage or speed.
 Small hint.
 Bio availability of O2  due to change in O2 Diss curve.



One of the most common questions I got in the last 48 hours from new MOXY users and not yet MOXY users. Mainly from  centers, who use  something called LBP lactate balance point testing.
 In short a assessment idea I developed about 20 - 25 years back, in the hay days of 2 and 4 mmol lactate and lactate threshold.
Indications  made by people like Brooks and  the early intake of Noakes CG  pushed me to the question, whether lactate  may be used only as a metabolic bio marker , rather than an absolute indication of preference..
 This at that time very delicate idea pushed a group in Switzerland  to an out of Court settlement with a great university. Fun times  always , when  something different  pushes the nerve of something established. MOXY  may be  the next nerve push button.
 1. What we learned  from LBP assessment is the fact, that lactate  seems to be a great bio marker  for many different ideas and fro many ideas like a shuttle idea of energy .
What we missed at the time was the fact, that we have limiter and compensator and depending how intense you load the  first part in a LBP test will unfortunately change the outcome in the second part.

 2. Now to the question of using lactate.
 I don't use lactate anymore during assessments.
 In an endurance assessment nor in a IPAHR fro game sports.
 I use lactate as an indicator for energy " re loading "  at specific times of the day and after certain workouts.

 Why would you still use it during assessments.
 Main reason: Try to ease slowly into NIRS MOXY and one way to do it is to maintain your incredible experience you have  from your  common testing ideas and add  MOXY. BUT
 Try not open your mind to not try to push MOXY into the " classical" systems to find lactate threshold or what ever  threshold you work with . Simply observe the trends of SmO2  and slowly see, how the trend may interact with other values and bio marker you may collect. Here some pics  from   assessments, where they  still used lactate and they feel now very comfortable not to use it anymore.

First pic is from our friends in Norway an incredible progressive group  where I am sure we will see many more  great feed backs and challenging questions and discussion as they are ongoing.
 PIC 2 is a case study out of a  work  done by Martina Feldmann ( Student at UBC.) In that case study  they where looking at the SEMG as well and the example is an example where we identified the limitation as a  muscular utilization limitation. Will get back to these ideas somewhat later.

Pic three is an interesting change in the energy picture we all learned in school with the ATP  followed by the CP  followed by glucose.
 We may have to get used, that this idea needs some reviewing  and that we use  from the beginning a  lot  glucose  and a lot O2 already and in fact possibly much more at the start of a load than  later ( depending  on the intensity and energy  demand )  And last but not least the  ultimate question of rather protecting ATP use, than try to keep up with demand.

Hence,another theory26 must be found that will also explain the protection of ATP homeostasis in muscles that lack a crucial

pathway for ATP generation. One possibility is the recent proposal of Shulman and Rothman27 that muscle glycogenolysis makes the major contribution to the rapid ATP requirements during millisecond muscle contractions, and that glycogen resynthesis

then occurs from metabolic intermediaries that contain carbon, including lactate, and from oxygen provided in the

blood. Thus the lactate produced by rapid glycogenolysis during millisecond muscle contractions can then contribute

to oxidative metabolism and the resynthesis of glycogen, hence the ‘‘glycogen shunt’’.

I will  open the discussion further on the next  thread to a anotherr now  often asked  question.  What can I see in simple terms, when  using just MOXY.

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 
Here a feedback from Slovenia by a regular reader here on our forum and some very very nice feed backs from him.
 Here his test result from 5 min step test. He as well gathered info n lactate and VO2  and  will very fast see, that this is nice but not needed anymore. What we need is  the info from VO2 testing on the respiratory trends  like RF TV  VE and VO2/HR and VO2/RF Here just his NIRS  information to share .
 2 points we add  to go further:
 Look at first always at SmO2.
  A flat SmO2 at the end ( Some  different options ) but in general ( no cook book ) is a sign of utilization limitation of O2.  There are different reasons who can cause that . ( remember O2 Diss curve )  and a drop  in the end of SmO2  is  often an indication of a delivery limitation . ( the body takes it from the muscle itself  Hb  and perhaps even from Mb ) NIRS can't  make a difference in this part ).
 Here  Our Friends great and easy TIP ( Training intensity Profile ) Thanks so much for your generous sharing with all your data's. It helps;. us   most likely more than you. We never stop learning.
Juerg

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
Last for today.
 An exiting new MOXY user with three test and here just his overview. The deeper discussion is behind the scene but this here will help many new MOXY users to see, what we do and how SmO2  is an incredible bio marker when properly used and but into context with other information we always have a swell.

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #6 
Here an additional info  do  some questions.
 I take the risk that it sounds like a cook book but we all are working the be chefs  soon.
a) like with any testing  we can't use absolute numbers despite the fact that we do this. The human  physiology is an ongoing adjustment and is  changing steady. What does not change is trends.
  So when we do a lactate test the absolute numbers do not work.
 If we do a VO2 test the 5  can change  for the next day as the VO2 max  can change.
 If we do a FTP  we  may have a different value the next day.
 We can be close to the same values if  not a lot has changed over night.  Otherwise we  will need a simple and short   way of re assessing before a w workout.
 Well doing a FTP   may be difficult before a workout. Doing a VO2 max  even worse.
 True I could use  Lactate and use it as a trend   with a POC  equipment.
 But I have to stop take blood  and all the hazels.
 
 MOXY  may be the answer and I pair It with wattage and HR and RF if possible.
 I can do a " warm up" as I do anyway for an endurance workout and than take my  SmO2 values in combination with wattage and HR and I can assess fast and easy where I may have to change my workout  and in what direction.
b ) how?
 SmO2  value increasing  in the warm up  indicates a higher intake of O2  than I need at the current intensity.
 Z stable high level SmO2    indicates  a balance intake and utilization.
  a drop in SmO2  indicates a faster utilization than a delivery.
 . In this three  examples  we have  an easy way of adjusting intensity depending on the goal I have set out to achieve in today's workout.
  Summary.
A drop in SmO2  indicates  in simple term a delivery problem.
 A flat   SmO2  value indicates a balance  with  just perfect intake and use., if it is on a higher level and I can create fluctuation.
 In case of a lower level  or no chance to create fluctuation  a flat SmO2  means a utilization problem.
 We will come back to this as this is super fun to play around  once you have your moxy on your muscle to see this.
 Here a PP with some ideas   and open for questions.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #7 
Here  some questions, but I do not like to give an answer but rather like that you give an answer and we can compare the result  after the fact.
 Your task.
 This are 2 assessments I got sent in:
 1 From  Europe  and one from Canada . They like to get an idea, where we would make  " intensity " zoning.
 Now the name   is not needed just make your markers  and we see the result.
. Or in other words look at  SmO2  and  discuss, where you see a clear trend. Increase, decrease  and  perhaps a plateau.
 Think what the up and down mean.
 1is a 5 min step test with an incredible great trend info and one is an  5/1/5 our protocol  with a great clear info as well.
 One is SmO2  and one is tHb. Keep  simple and keep in mind.
 Under many  situation and increase in SmO2  means more O2  in than can be used. A plateau in most cases is a balanced in and out put.
 A drop in SmO2 is  a higher O2  demand than supply.
  Or  the second  direction.
 A plateau  can as well be  ( if low enough  and or even  high a sign of utilization problem  but look what happens after the plateau if something happens.
 A drop and a very steel drop mean as well a delivery problem.
 If you keep this in mind and look as well tHb as an indicator pf blood volume change , than you can see  that it is getting easier and easier to understand the TIP and why.  have fun with this 2   examples and many more may come.

 tomorrow our  answer but resuklt is always open for discussion

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #8 
Thanks for the surprising nice replay.
 From 11 ideas on where we  would move our Zoning ideas. ARI STEI FEI and HII  10 agreed  to all the same points  and time , One was different but with some very nice arguments why  he decided to TIP like he did.
 This shows 2 clear directions.
 
A )  very nice same results  but as well a reason to still use the brain and  repeat and change some of the ideas to save a complete proper feedback.
  Okay here 2  new test  for  "your " Zoning " ideas a and where you may go and workout  to stimulate one or the other  physiological  development.
 one is a run test and one is a walk test. one is a 5 min step test and the other  is a IPAHR  5/1/5. Your task Zoning  and feedback again on here or as most of you do  to the above email address.

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