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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #16 
I  love/ hate this   information's  .
 What do I mean.
 Here an incredible nice  work  from Ruud  and  when we  discuss with  FTP  people  we  never get  very far. What we often suggest is to repeat  a FTP assessment  a  few times  in a row  and see,  whether  Wattage  and  HR , and if  they use indoors  lactate  and VO2  and  cardiac hemodynmaic ( Physio flow), are repeatable.?
Well mainly the question  : Is the performance repeatable . If yes great if  no  even better  as it opens a  fair  critical questions, whether it is  smart to use a FTP assessment  as a guidance  for training zoning.
 We   always argue     ???
 Use wattage  but  you will not  always be able to be in the same  " zoning  when you look physiologically . You will  try,  and this is not even always possible to push the same wattage  but with a very  different physiological stimulation.
 Here  a  very short start in a  summary  from Ruud's   3  TIP's he did .

SmO2  all three.jpg   As usual , I am not interested in the wattage,  but Ruud may  add , what the difference was in wattage.
 You can see, as he seems to mount the moxy very  stable  close to the same place ,that his  start  calibration SmO2  is  +-   to the  same.
 What in very shot words  is different is, that his utilization ability  completely collapse  in the third  load. So despite having more O2  it is not bio available anymore, as there  was some overload  of  some specific systems.
 So he  delivers  perhaps,  will see closer later but he for sure  can not utilize it anymore.
 Here  very short  the comparison of the biased  O2Hb  and HHb pictures  without  explanation.
  So here we see very nicely what happens so we know  why he can't push the same wattage. By using wattage we   see he can't push the same wattage but why ???
Thanks Ruud  really great  work  and I sent you an email with the next step  you can play  with  to see,  whether it is  delivery  from vital systems  or local failure  from mitochondria  overload.


bias second.jpg  This  is biased  second TIP
 below is biased  third TIP
bias third.jpg

 Now here just for  fun  a closer look at the end. It looks  Ruud  was "playing " with some changes  in  loads there to  try to see what SmO2  may or may not  do or whether he can  "overrule " the physiological limitation he created.  or  we have  an interesting situation  ?

bias secloser look  last  2  loads.jpg  He seem to have altered  load  and unload so let's go closer.
bias closer  look again 1  loads.jpg

You can see  a kind of  a pattern  of app =- 30 seconds load  where  SmO2  drops  and than  unload similar length. Lets' see is  it mechanical  so load  unload  or is it  a  reflex  reaction
super close  thb  smo2.jpg

You can see it  is +-  a  30 second  unload d SmO2  up and tHB  up.   and it is pretty even  so most likly a   "planned  work  from ruud  with load  and unload . To keep it  simple as I got warmed  to loose people  I  leave it on this speculation. There are  however situations, where the physiological systems  may create this   picture  as well.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #17 
I like to show you here  2 people with an  overlap SmO2 trend.
 They moved in  exactly the opposite direction . You will easy find out what it all means  by now.
 First case.
Courtesy of a great  forward thinking coaching and training group.  http://www.balancepointracing.com/
 In short words.
 First assessment  was done after a  hard workout  day  before.

 When we looked  at it closer if indicated a  delivery limitation with a   compensation over utilization.
 This  compensation is only possible in very well trained and structural trained  athletes. They are able  to use this structure ( mitochondria density )  and push them, functionally to a higher  level  for higher and better  O2  utilization. It is not effective  every time (certain training can create this ) but normally in the off season they only push there, if their  Brain  likes to push harder , as they can  not accept  the  low performance they see in an assessment.
As soon the limiter is recovered  and they  can push higher levels,  they normally will not dig into this   reserve  of utilization , with exceptions in a race.( only  at the end of a race) The reason is simple . You really do not like to be  that low in SmO2  situations  in case there is a change in intensity  and you have no  Spare left. In  simple words.  You do not like to have your bank acount   too low  close to a situation, where you  would go  in a deficit  ,but your body will not  allow you to go into an O2 deficit  , so it will simply  reduce  motor unit recruitment  and you will reduce  performance whether you like it or not.
 So in this case we have a hard workout   and because of  interest  in a  5/1/5  result, the next day a  5/1/5  result with the feedback  of the hard workout. As the wattage during the  5/1/5  where not looking really  great  ( the limiter  was not helping at all  but the compensator   kicked in nicely. ( delivery is limiter  and utilization  was the compensator)
 What is needed is a rest phase  of a few  days  and repeat.
 So Limiter ( delivery ) is recovered  so  this  is  along term better O2  delivery , than a  great utilization. Result will be a better performance  despite a less   depth of utilization. Here the result ;

2 overlp smo2.jpg  Light green  assessment after hard workout,  dark green assessment after some  recovery


 Now next  from Ruud the opposite  direction.
  5/1/5  assessment  plus a few interval workouts  to play with MOXY. So lot's of  work  and often  (  I think at least )   based on using wattage . So no feedback to see, whether the same wattage may  in the mean time  have  changed  completely the %  of  load  to the FTP  load.
 Result is an overload ( not negative )  of the limiter for sure.  and if  you keep going,  an additional overload of the compensator as well.
 The result will be the opposite . You will have a relative good result    . In his case as well a great utilization ability  in the  first 5/1/5  and second  nearly identical, but a delivery limitation.
 So you overload the limiter ( delivery )  and keep going so you will as well overload the utilization  and the end result will be a  weak performance from the  limiter and   no help form the compensator  and   overall performance will have to drop.
 Here the result below

SmO2  all three.jpg

 Just as  an  add on. Interesting in Ruud's case is as well a loss of  an  economical  pedal stroke , either due to  fatigue  of this area as well ,or an  unnatural cadence  he normally does not use. You can easy see, what I mean when looking at tHb reactions

differecne in thb reaction.jpg 


Andrew

Study Participant
Registered:
Posts: 45
 #18 
Thank you Juerg, and Andri for your insights into my first real trials with the 5/1/5 protocol. Your overlap and description in the previous post really helped me understand what I was aware of during the testing itself. And I really do believe THAT is the value of the Moxy, which I have understood from the beginning, but am only now beginning to grasp at a deeper level. The Moxy has the ability to help identify the "feelings" that we all have at varying intensities. It helps us understand why our legs might feel like lead, even though we have not done anything to stress the musical-skeletal system, or why the respiratory challenge of swimming in a wetsuit leads to such poor performance on the bike for some triathletes. 

I have taken some of the ideas from Juerg and Andri, and am challenging my "limiter" in some fun winter training activities: 1) throwing 18-20kg flailing children into deep snow drifts, and then running down afterwards to dig them out, and carry them back up the hill (it is snowing very heavily in the Okanagan this week). and 2) Cutting my fun xc ski loop short, but pushing ridiculously fast up every hill, which leads to some very comical coordination challenges for those of us not blessed with great technique and 3) fat-biking in the deep powder, with a big degree of thanks to all the snowshoe participants for a) packing down the trails enough for me to ride and b) jumping off the trail to avoid collisions with me.

I will be ready to retest my limiter in a few weeks, to see if the fun training is working on my delivery system, before I trial some more formal ways of improving my delivery system. I think Juerg would have fun on a fat bike, riding around his little lake in Quesnel. All the best from the Okanagan. 
Ruud_G

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 279
 #19 
Hi Juerg. Thanks for your insights on the three TIPs. Wrt the 30 sec unload / load pattern: I did not do any specific thing there of which I was actually aware of. I was basically only trying to hold the wattage for those steps. But maybe my body already started to "protest" there: So maybe this in an interesting physiological reaction as you say which might occur under some circumstances?
Ruud_G

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 279
 #20 
In some way there must be some sort of short simple protocol which you can do (say in the morning before your race) in which you can already predict in a way your performance (output) in a race or trial a few hours later. That of course assumes you're body won't adopt (read changes) much before you have to perform. Any thoughts or studies about this? And had anyone every tried to monitor Moxy parameters every morning and correlate these values to performance metrics for those days? Maybe a bit off topic sorry
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #21 
Ruud  really great points.
 Yes  your idea is great  and yes we have datas  from Portamon  and  than from MOXY of  the same  athletes  over a  collection  span of  5  plus years  and yes  we  have in fact a  okay , but never perfect idea in many athletes, whether they are ready to do certain workouts  or not.
 Brian is using this daily in  ice hockey players and yes we see  very nice  correlation between HR  SmO2     and even tHb reactions.. There are  situation after specific  workouts, where  athletes  can not   drop SmO2  and other situations , where they can't reload properly . Different loads seem to have   specific impacts  on utilization  but as well on  blood flow reactions.
 This leads to situations, where you may plan a workout, where  you like to keep a stable HR  but you like to    change SmO2    reactions, versus  workotus  where you like to float  HR  and SmO2  due to    speciifc  goal settings. Same  can be done  with  changing the behaviour  of tHb .
We have in many of this cases    many datas  collection   in excesss off over 100 ,  but we do not  feel comfortable to make a metric  out of that , as we have  at least  a  10 - 20 %  failure rate, when we  try  in different people to repeat the same reaction. So we would need  much more  datas  up  to 500 to have a decent statitical  idea  an some   baseline with still many  individual reactions. BUT  why  would we look for that anyway, when we have a tool  where we se this  individual liek HRV  or resting HR  or resting SV  and resting  RF  now we add SmO2  and tHb. And yes   an individual can  produce  a  clear pictrue and can see with a  " warm up  load  as we  do   every dy  with every workout, whether it makes  sense  to  do a certian workout.
 SmO2  tHb reactions paired  with RF  and HR  as simple biomarkers  and looking at  performance in sports you have  this ability    is a great way to decide, whether you will do a workout   you may have planned  or you may need a rest day   or a complet  different plan  as your cardiac system may still be  fatigued.
 Se below see how we  can change stimmuly  depending whether we like  to load limiter  and or  load    compensator  or both.

 Here a  very short inside  view  in some  of this   studies  we  do since many years.  

diff  intervall versions HR.jpg 
Above   3 intervall workouts  same athlet / First half is a typicall calibration  set to see how the body reacts. HR alone does not tell too much  as you can see.
 Now  look  at HR  2  and HR  3 trends. One  floats  with loads  and one is stable  as it  would be a  stable Wattage  or steady state  workout.
 Now look below  same   3  intervalls  but looking at SmO2  reactions.

diff  intervall versions smo2.jpg   Look at SmO2  2  and SmO2  3. Both  show on here an  " interval type of a workout.
 The goal  was to see, whether we  can create a utilization interval  with a stable and a  floating  HR  and as you can see, we   can do that in some athletes  after   some specific  type of training. So I can    " rest  " HR  as a    change in HR  but can still  train utilization or  I can  utilize  by changing HR  loads as well.
  Now  watch  HR 1  and SmO2  one  and    guess what  and or how tHb  may look like in all three workouts.
 The goal was to try, whether  we  can maintain a relative stable  tHB reaction depsite a  floating  of HR  and SmO2. 
 Below  some results  from the same  three loads.

diff  intervall versions thbjpg.jpg

Summary to your question.
 1. Yes we have sepcific    " warm " ups  to decide  the bodies   possible reactions.

2. Yes    we can create  for  an individual athlete  an individual   " metric "

 3. No there are no studies published, as  non of the current  publication  has combined  like we did  different  options of  noninvasive hemodynamic  combined  with VO2  combined  with 3   to 4  and more NIRS  udies us e one   or perhaps 2  combination, whicj always  leads  to many more open questions  and  a lot of speculative conclusions.
The reson  why  we did this over the last 15 years plus is ,to find a  possiblities to close the gap  from Lab reseaerch , where we  have all this tools  to practical applications, where we  can make relative  good  conclusions of all the physiological reactions by simply using NIRS/ MOXY.
 The result of this years  of work you can  find here  on this  forum.
We  are always  positive surprised, when doing presentations, that the suppprt  we find is  growing  but as well the positive critical questions.   Often the questions come  due to lack of   research  from the groups  with this combinations.
 Example is the  connection between SV  and tHb  trends  and the only way  you can find this out  is by combining     cadriac output assessment tools  like Physio flow  with NIRS  and tHb trends. It is not how accurate the numbers  are   in any of the equipment ,but  whether the trend is the same. Example. Veneous occlusion trend in a bigger muscle group reduces  the   back flow  for preload  and we  see an increase in HR but a drop in SV.
 So   for MOXY users  only. You can create a  veneous  occlusion  and than let it go  so you have a  low  preload  followed by a bigger preload  when we  have occlusion outlfow. THis is one  way to  work on stroke volume.
 Nothing really that new as we  always speculated that intervall workout  will crerate a   SV  stimmulation.
 BUt only  when the interval load is in an intensity  that we  create a veneous occlusion. That's where the specificity of  MOXY training come in  and you see the changes we  can produce in tHb  above.

 There  was one  incredible great study  done  (   not published ) by Red Bull and  Per Lundstrome  with all this combinations  plus  more for some  future  research directions. Will show on the next  replay some  fun pictures  on this  and how we  test this since many years in our small private  bush lab  for rehab ideas. Thanks  to Per  to invite me  and  give me a chance to show  all the crazy ideas.





Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #22 
Here a rare  insight  view in where all this is coming  from.

 Here one  o my  poor kids  being abused  as guinea  pigs. Flurin is a diabetic  1  kid and the goal was to find out  how  we  can load    and make a pretty normal active  live  out of the  unfortunate situation. Here a specif  assessment  with blood assessment  Physio flow VO2  and NIRS  to   find bio markers like   the once we  discuss all the time.

Flurin.jpg
 Some of the results  would look like this   below.
Cardiac  info
EH_CARDIO.jpg

Or  additional  NIRS  feedback
EH_OxTRA.png 

Followed by gas exchange  and  respiratory and blood  feed backs. ( yes we  use lactate )
EH_VENT.png 
we look at this n all different levels
yama 3 levels.JPG 
 Some of this  information  comes as well from Switzerland  with Swinco  and  some   out of the box  groups.. Below Cesare  from Swinco  and Andrea  in Ticino  ( that's why it is in Italian )

Training with the top Asian  MTB  guy  with some specific   respiratory ideas in mind. ( O2  diss curve  shifting )
R0011062-thumb-500x375-3529_500x375.jpg

Here one of the small  groups  with  Frank Bour the inventor   of the Physio Flow  and  Jan Venter, one of the leading  and only brain mapping guys  in  north America ( originally  form South Africa )  , my self  and a guinea  pig  in my place  in the bush  trying out  crazy ideas  nobody would  ever try.
Physio flow and eqipment 011.jpg

 Trying out  on a nearly  quadriplegic   local  friend  to improve out come.
Physio flow and eqipment 031.jpg 

But as well with   Brian in his  next level training center here  on his  skate mill.

hockey 009.jpg

Than lucky for us  a big  group is  looking at this options  as well.
 Per Lundstrom  from Red Bull a very out of the box thinking high performance   guy  in that organization
red bull.jpg

red bul blood.jpg

red bull NIRS.jpg

red bull NIRS.PF.jpg

red bull NIRSbrain.jpg


Now  all this   expensive  but fun tools   are great but  the ultimate goal  for me is to be able to support   a farmer out in the bush in his this only works when we can bring it back to an individual baseline with  live feedback and no  crazy metrics  and statistics but  just him and me.
 This is just a  rare  feedback  for regular readers, that we  do not suck this out of the blue , we actually do research  and we  actually take it serious yes  we  actually believe it is one person at a time  and  no such thing like a cook book.
 Is it a  money maker, No  not at all. Is it  fun and pleasing for me . Yes immense  and I   love it    no matter on what toes  I will step  but it is  as it is   physiology  is  an individual  reaction  from an individual person  at a very specific  situation in his live. Repeatable yes but as well   involved in many changes  as we go along.
 no such thing like responder or nonresponder, limitation in performance, like zoning or  periodization.
 There is something like  an inability from myself  and   other coaches  and researcher do not be able yet  or at all to find the    full   story of  the   secret  of  physiological behavior.

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