Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 3 of 4      Prev   1   2   3   4   Next
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #31 
Now  one open  question in this case is.
 Assumption. 
For me it looks that  when  this person did  the  workout  where we see the tHB  drop in the rets  he was not yet  fully recovered  form his cardiac  overload. 
 Now  one  question we  always have to look, when we see tHb increase  :   Occlusion  or outflow trend  versus    increase in  CO   against  muscle compression.
 Now  if we  have an outflow  trend  we will Colette more HHb in the  pooling so  the increase in tHB   is  due to  increase in HHB in the tested area.  so   as we showed many times  the  Biased  version can show this best.

here first a classical venomous occlusion without  activity   so we have a steady inflow of  O2  ( red  O2Hb ) but a pooling as well of  HHb  as we have no  outflow
Taken from the  script  of the  first  and still leading NIRS device  Artinis ( portamon).

veneous occlusion.jpg 

Now below  an occlusion  created naturally during  squatting . Courtesy  of  a  seminar  we  had  with Red b Bull in Santa Monica

3 squatting biased.jpg


N
ot a clear as we use O2 but we add to  the pooling more  HHb ( Blue)  look the  scale on the left axis  and see the difference in   red  and blue  amplitude  from this biased  view.

Now below  a biased  section  of one load in the " fatigued ":  workout  and in the  more recovered  workout.

biased  ne   fatigue  example  non occlusion  sign.jpg




fatigued bais load.jpg 
Y
ou can see how fascinating  MOXY is  look at the   grpahs  and see how repeatable  this is  during the same load physiologically.
 Go back to the  comparison of  VO2  max  testing equipment and look  the variation simply based on the mask  we sue. go back  to lactate  and  compare  lactate levels if  you take it on the ear the finger  the foot  if IOU take it after 3  min  5  min and so on. If  you take it  depending on food intake.
 Hmmm   what  do we  try to defend  or justify ?

ryinc

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 360
 #32 
Jeurg, forgive me but i am not sure i understand your last post about the occlusions. Are you saying that as the final check to confirm interpretation of cardiac not recovered, we need to assess whether it can be an occlusion? If yes, i am still not sure how you come to the conclusion that it is not an occlusion in the fatigued workout? Sorry, I have read the post a few times, i just am not sure what you are trying to help us see?

Not a clear as we use O2 but we add to  the pooling more  HHb ( Blue)  look the  scale on the left axis  and see the difference in   red  and blue  amplitude  from this biased  view. (squatting occlusions)

The amplitudes look similar to me?

Now below  a biased  section  of one load in the " fatigued ":  workout  and in the  more recovered  workout.

I can see that how the top biased picture comes from the fatigued workout, but the second picture doesn't seem to match up to any of the sections from the recovered workout?.

Thanks for the earlier post too. On the points about respiratory VE - i will try out these experiments, and follow up with questions if i have.
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #33 
Thnaks  for the  question back.
What I  try to show is  the options , if  we  look for  a possible occlusion  or better outflow trend  during a load  to make the  difference  on the  tHb  drop   at the moment where we  stop.

The biased  grpahs  help  us  to look at this. If we  create  an outflow   limitation  during any load , we have  an increase in tHb  due  to  a pooling trend.  As we   workout  we  bring O2Hb in   and convert some of  this  to  HHb   but the  HHb   is not  disappearing  as  fast as  when we have free flow  so we see, that the tHb increase is mainly    due to the pooling and  HHb  will be much  higher represent  in this tHb   so  when you look in teh  squatting you see  HHb  increasing  in  the biased   base line more  than  O2 Hb  drops. So when I compare in the fatigued  and non fatigued  grpahs  the loads  I  can not  find a clear  indication for this trend. The  drop in tHb  is  therefor less likely a pooling outflow  but  possibly  a BP   correction  due to  CO limitation.
  Yes there is  some additional options  why we  could  drop but leave it  with this  2  for the moment.  Below   I  took  randomly  another biased  section of the possibly non fatigued  graphs.
non fatigued   bias.jpg



The amplitudes look similar to me?

T
hat  was exactly my point  there is no  trend difference inn tHb increase Bennett  fatigued  and non fatigued, as I  do not think it is  an outflow  creationist trend.



ryinc

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 360
 #34 
Juerg thanks so much i think i now understand it, you have shown the squatting graph a few times and i think i finally understand what you are trying to show in it.

 (Squatting) : "...due to the pooling and  HHb  will be much  higher represent  in this tHb   so  when you look in teh  squatting you see  HHb  increasing  in  the biased   base line more  than  O2 Hb  drops."

What was confusing me here is that the HHb increase is only very slightly higher than the 02Hb drop, but i now see that it was about 0.5 higher on the scale on the left in the squatting graph.

After your detailed explanation, i had a look at the fatigued bias graph again, there are a number of instances where tHb actually drops for a few seconds even though HHb continues a steady increase - so again this helps to confirm that the increase in tHB is less to do with HHb increasing (i.e. pooling).

Thanks again for the patience in the explanation
Ryan 
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #35 
Ryan  ,  first and foremost  thanks  for your  regular   great questions and  second  thanks  for  taking the  ongoing challenge to understand  Swenglish ( Swiss and english )  and  my inability in many cases  to   explain it  simple  and straight forward. You are  a
big help and I get many  emails   loving your  steady great  questions  you ask.


Here some more feedback on your  request  of  practical feedback's  on   different limitations.
 This is a  cross country assessment.

3 moxys.    On  (SmO2  1 )  triceps/  smo2  2  quadriceps  / smo2 3  hamstrings

Her  first the  SmO2  of  all three

ski erg smo2 2 legs  one upper body.jpg 
Now interesting  for break point  believers  is, that we have in all three  muscles  a similar  trend  when SmO2  starts  to  drop. +-

More interesting again is  what causes  the  change and  again  I like to look at tHb much closer as it is a part of feedback on delivery as well.

ski erg tHb 2 legs   and one upper body muscle.jpg 


Above  dark  triceps/  middle  brown is  quadriceps / and  light is  hamstrings.

Now  the  last section in triceps  is  most likely a  bad  connection, so I looked  at  an earlier place when we see  the  drop in SmO2

 Now look at the  three circles  below

occlsuion on  H  and Q and  BP  tri.jpg 
You can see tHb  drop in triceps  and in quadriceps   towards  the end  of the assessment  but a  increase in tHb in the  hamstrings. On the other side  you as well  have a thB increase  during the load in quadriceps  and in hamstrings last incomplete  load  see red  circle.
 So  the question again.  :  1. Drop  due to  occlusion outflow or  BP  protection.

lets look  first  the  increase in Quadriceps  tHB  during the load .(  thick  red circle.

RF  thb  smo2  Very close look    occlusiomall.jpg 

Now  look at  Biased as it is  first easier  to see. 

occlusion  quadriceps.jpg


Y
ou are the judge

Now lets look hamstrings  only in the last  load 

occlusion  hamstrings in lats load.jpg



W
hat  do  you see ?


 Now last  but not least  triceps  reaction  . Keep in mind  the CO  has in cross country skiing a huge  demand  to cover  not just on O2  delivery but much more important  for BP    to be maintained.

tri close look BP systemic reaction.jpg 
Above    2  sections    where we look at 1 min rest in the triceps  trend.

and than  let's look in of  them super close. You see occlusion is less in discussion as we have a minimal  to non tHb increase.

try super close lok BP  systmic.jpg 
You  decide .
 What is  for me  fascinating .
 If  you   combine   physiological information as we  always should  , instead of performance trends  and than  look at the  whole team we  have a  super interesting tool in a  small equipment like MOXY  to make a real change in the way we  work  with patients  and    general public in the future.


vo2  AND ECGM.jpg

ryinc

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 360
 #36 
Thanks for sharing this example Juerg.

juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #37 
Now  as you can see in this cross country  example.  What is the main limiter and what is the  consequences if  any of that limitation. Than  what is the limitation in single  words.
 Triceps indicates  ???
 Quadriceps  indicates  
and hamstrings indicates. ?


ryinc

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 360
 #38 
Juerg to me it.looks as though during load blood is shuttled from hamstring to quads in later loads probably due to a compensation for cardiac limitation (either that or the tecnique changed) During the rest there ia a blood pressure reaction, but this shows up differently. In quads and tricep there is a drop but in hamstrings an increase in thb.
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #39 
Interesting  points.
 What we may  discuss is  the  other options.
 Triceps  as an upper body  can easier be  stopped working  and you still move. So CO  to   low  to maintain  BP  so triceps  shows a BP  correction ( protection )  during the one min rest.
. Quadriceps  shows  early an outflow restriction see biased  trend  so  due to more isometric  action in quadriceps    and Hamstring  in the all out shows as  well  what  see biased  graph. ?  Now in cases liek that having  HR is great as  well. And  for sure  having  physio flow  to get  a  real feedback  on CO  reaction.
 Will see whether I  get some  examples with Physio flow and VO2
ryinc

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 360
 #40 
Juerg, for the quadriceps there is a very very slight difference in HHb vs 02hb, is this a sufficient difference to conclude occlusion?

For hamstrings on the last all out load there is an increasing thb trend but thb does not drop on rest so surely this rules occlusion?
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #41 
Ryan
 perfect.
 1. Quadriceps in  cross country  and  speed skating for example, but as well in  downhill skiing  if they get  " tired"  they tend  to  straighten up the knee a little bit , but  bend in the hip so  they believe they still have the same position when in fact  the  quadriceps  is more  now  in an isometric   work  versus   hamstrings  who now change their  activity as well.
 So in this case yes   quadriceps   has a occlusion trend  with  O2Hb  down  and  higher increase in  HHb    so tHb  has more HHb  due top pooling  with than a pooling outflow  after the load.
 On the other hand  as you point  out   where I would go is . It looks  from tHb  HHb  and O2 have a minimal increase in HHb  so  occlusion option, but  we miss the pooling outflow. So  what causes  the  increase in HHb  somewhat slightly more than we  have in O2 Hb  drop..
 Now look at SmO2 trend in hamstrings  ??? Look tHb overshoot in hamstrings.
 What creates a  drop in SmO2  and an   overshoot  or  high tHb reaction.
 If  you have the possible answer  you can see  why we have  in HHb and a similar  reaction just milder  as we have in an occlusion. ????
ryinc

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 360
 #42 
Juerg not sure i understand 100%. A drop in smo2 plus strong thb rebound could be due to CO2 buildup (systemic), or an arterial occlussion (local)? Given it is a local reaction, arterial occlusion?
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #43 
What would we  expect  when  we have an arterial occlusion  with the tHb trend ?
ryinc

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 360
 #44 
Thb will drop initially due to compression. Then thb rises as venous side likely to occlude first. Then flat thb as arterial side occludes possibly even a reduction as bloodflow totally restricted. Then after load i think an increase or a decrease might be possible fepending on how quickly arterial side occluded after venous side and therefore extent of pooling
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #45 
Yes and as pointed  out  the " quality " of  the  motor unit recruitment will decide, whether we see an  initial  tHb  drop ( compression )  followed by a potential  increase tHb ( outflow restriction  ) , and finally a flow at  section (tHb if  we have a total  art. occlusion. Now  as more  explosive ( great intramuscular  contraction ( sharp    increase in SEMG )  as  less we may see  tHb  drop  and  tHb increase but really nothing as we  have a very explosive  arterial occlusion.  This is a great  tool to observe  intramuscular  fatigue  without  SEMG  when we  look at sports like ice hockey   line  sprints ina  workout  but as well during a game. Same  for  downhill ski  in the  snow  workouts  where we see   in the  first  few gates in a  slalom    workout   minimal tHB  changes  due  to great  aggressive  work   on the skis  and as  the gate numbers increase w e start to see tHb  fluctuations due  to less optimal  motor unit recruitment.  On the otehr side  t  can be used  to observe a  inter muscular  coordination mainly as well on a  muscular  dysbalance.
Example. You  may need a clear contraction in a  knee ex-tensor  but as well a clear  relaxation in the knee flex or  and you can see whether you have  a nice   opposition  tHb reaction  with  for example compression  on the one  side  and decompression on the oppose  muscle. We did  some major internal studies    many years back  with Frank Days  power cranks  as well as with the  initial  Rotor  crank  system  before they go  replaced  with Q  rings  in cycling. Now we look at many   more different sports  and rehab  options.  It is  again a question of the  goal you  set  with the workout.
 Do I liek to create an a  occlusion  and what is the benefit   of it and  what is  the disadvantage of it.
 What  do i stimulate  with an occlusion or  what to I miss in stimulation because  of an occlusion.

It  again is  the  fundamental difference  between  planning a  workout on  power  or  performance  and looking  a  workout  form the physiological reaction.
 Example:
 I may  do a  muscular overload  workout  today.
 Normal if  I  load  350 watts   with a  " fresh  muscle system  I see a tHb  drop   and than  a  slowly  recovery during a load.
 Now  with a   muscular fatigue  I may  create  by the same ;load a  outflow  restriction  so  I have a very different  stimulus  by the same  wattage.
 Is  that good or bad . Nothing of  both  it is  simply a  question  whether it was  planned and you know it or  whether it  happens in the dark  and you  do not  understand  why   the   client reacts so different despite the same  load.

If  you use  a   mathematical  calculated  " fatigue " idea  like  W  bal  than  you may have  the same result  but a very different physiological out come.  For a  calculated  fatigue  you need  to  change the  FTP  or CP  or  performance  values  before   it may  work close  again. Try ti by    working out  at sea level and than in 3000 m  altitude  and  you not  correct the performance vales you need  and you see it, but you as well can fatigue  your respiration  and  try it  and  again a very different physiological fatigue  feeling than  what you will see  calculated.

I  am  still surprised  that we  after all this years  having many  FTP  and wattage readers on thsi forum I still wait  for a  FTP  assessment with  a live NIRS  print out  and   somebody  who offers  3  FTP assessment   three days in a  row  so we  see wattage  and  NIRS  compared.
 Than I miss   all the W  Bal users  doing a  respiratory overload one  day  and than  the same  workout  to see how  W  bal reacts  and how they feel.
 Lots  of  very  great critical  e mails but very few  critical  self observations  for a  fair  discussion.

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter - Quick-counter.net