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juergfeldmann

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 #1 


 Here a  short insight in a  nice  article on using another NIRS  equipment.

If you think of the warmup as a rocket launch-style sequence to bring all systems online, BSX 2.0 showed us when muscle oxygenation is a go.
Coaches can plan and evaluate a workout – or any portion of a workout – in terms of how SmO2 changes from the “warmed-up” baseline. During intervals, the SmO2 curve indicates how much the athlete recovers between each interval. The closer SmO2 approaches the warmed-up SmO2, the more the athlete has recovered. Coaches can then manipulate the recovery periods to maintain the athlete above or below a given SmO2 to simulate race conditions, to induce a stronger or more specific adaptive response. BSX 2.0 has a high cross-over value from endurance sports to speed & power sports, which require a high level of anaerobic conditioning. By ensuring that SmO2 returns to baseline in between training intervals, coaches can be sure that the athlete is repeatedly stressing anaerobic systems and not transitioning into aerobic metabolism

One of the interpretation will  depend on, whether we believe ATP  drops  Cr,P  drops  and than  O2 independent  glycolysis  before we start to use  really O2
As mentioned in many  places  we  believe the research done in the newer  time   shows , that there is no such thing like one after the other but rather  all together and who ever  can help to maintain a stable  ATP level  will  help  all controlled by the CG 
. The fact that  SmO2  immediately drops indicates  an immediate  integration of O2  for energy  production (  In ms  sec   Suhlman  et all ) .
By ensuring  SmO2  returning to  baseline means we used  O2  and therefor  we  will see a   loading  back to  baseline.

coaches can be sure that the athlete is repeatedly stressing anaerobic systems .
well if  he  drops  SmO2  during a  short load  and than  recovering  SmO2    during the rest , it seems to me he uses  O2  ensuring actually an integration  of  O2 ?  The fact  that the   "classical " idea  of  anaerob / alacticid  was a  problem of   the equipment rather than a fact  , highlights the change  since we  can use NIRS  for workouts.. In fact  as long we see  a  steady  drop in SmO2  and no  real  hesitation means  we have a great involvement of O2  in the load. If  we  stop the load    before we  have plateau  we  secure the  integration of O2  into the workout  and if we let it properly  over  above  baseline  we  give an additional  chance  again  to use O in the following  load. Some may remember the ice hockey  60 min  load  with  intervals  only using SmO2  and not  desaturate  too low  so it is a question of  recovery  O2  rather than  not  using O 2.

We  will see lot's of discussion as many  classical ideas  can't keep  holding up  ,if we start to   make NIRS interpretation. So if  we  hang on this  ideas we will have  some major   contradiction  when looking at NIRS  data's.  Will be  fun  to ,  see  learn  and discuss

fitbyfred

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 #2 
Hi. Seems like a long time since I last interacted on forum... lots of bike stuff over November.

Since we're talking different look, etc. etc. I'm wondering if there's thought on getting the language / terms aligned with current views / interpretations ? 

For instance the term recovery is used throughout the forum, however I'm sure these could be revisited, since most likely my recovery is going to require a block of time between stimulation periods.

This is by no way an over-criticism, but rather an observation. Kindly please feel welcome to correct me if I mis-speak? 

I try hard to break away from terms like this and force use RELOAD in reference to upward trend of %SmO2.

Any thoughts ?

FBF 
juergfeldmann

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 #3 
Fred ,
 thanks so much
 Since we're talking different look, etc. etc. I'm wondering if there's thought on getting the language / terms aligned with current views / interpretations ?
.

 You
are absolutely  right

I try hard to break away from terms like this and force use RELOAD in reference to upward trend of %SmO2.

 same on here.
 It  may be time we  actually as you suggest  start an international  coaching NIRS  language  as we  have an  ever increasing   flood  of mails  and  often  the discussion  is hard to follow  when we  talk   about the same  but use different terms.  We  are planning  at least  for Europe a   " certification"  system  for NIRS  coaching  and  as such a  terminology  so we  talk about the same.  This is  even more important  once we  start showing actual training ideas on how to stimulate  utilization  or  delivered or what  ever we discuss on here.  So  any  suggestions    when we talk on here  about  ideas  are  very welcome. There will be a  small  difficulty sometimes  due to  different languages as we  will have the handouts in German  and hopefully in french  and in Italian  and some other    European languages.

 This is than less about interpretation for NIRS as we do on here but  it is all about  training  and feedback  when using NIRS  for specific  goals.

 On this  forum here it is all about  getting  the ideas out  on how  to use NIRS for interpretation.
  That's  why we  do not show any suggestion on how  you train  or improve  a  utilization problem  or how you train a limiter  like  a cardiac limitation.
 This is a very different topic  and is up  to the coaches  and not to  a NIRS  equipment producer.  But  really, as Fred  mentioned , the terminology  should  be involved here as well.  So keep   coming in  with critical  points, where we mess up  new ideas  and mix  it  with classical  ideas. like  lactate tolerance  for example  as one interesting  term.  So the terms  can be very   new  and unique  and hopefully  easy  and nearly  self explanation. Yes   let's  work on this
fitbyfred

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Posts: 168
 #4 
Juerg, 

Yes, completely agree a simple short infographic would be welcome and most likely not any more challenging than establishing accepted charting colours, which are obviously used internationally, as demonstrated by the posts and uploads on this forum.

Another point: decreasing trend of % SmO2. Based on limitation / compensation, "utilization" may not describe the reaction accurately for every decreasing trend ???
CraigMahony

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 #5 
You stated that this forum is mainly on NIRS interpretation and not training / coaching. So where can you find out about NIRS Training / coaching if not here?
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #6 
Thanks  for this very common question.
What we like to  help on the MOXY forum is, the next step  for regular readers to get into the  intriguing discussions on what we can  read out  from NIRS feed backs.
I hope that many readers see, that the physiological systems really interact  with each other  and   that the  option, that  much is  controlled    for  survivals over  central systems , is not that far  fetched.

What  makes this ideas  for the moment very different is the  fact, that we  are not looking  for a magical  point  like a MAX  value  or a  critical  turn around value  as we  do  or  did in the past. So in the past we   where hoping that we  found a  magical point  gave him  100 %  and than used a  calculator. From this point on  all the training ideas  and or intensities where based on a  % of the magical point and hope.
This gave this ideas a  major  advantage.
 There was no questions  ask  nor where there  any discussions.
 Once you had the magical point  the problems  where solved  and the planning  could begin.

Now  we  have a physiological live feedback   which we  use during a  workout  and  for assessments. The assessments  can take place as we  work out  or as a actual assessment , where we use performance in some sports  to see  how  trends  change in physiological reactions.  This  information  is now a  problem  or a  challenge.
  We  now  can give the athletes or the coaches the feedback on why  or what limits performance  for the moment. This allows a  much more specific  training ideas based on individual  weaknesses  and strength.

 This interpretation  to find this limiter  and compensator  is the goal   of this discussions  we   have on here.

Once you  found your limiter  and compensator  than it is up  to each coach or athletes  to now  use  their ideas  to  try  to improve  upon the findings.
This  can  be done in many different ways  and there is  most likely no  right or  wrong  way but a specific  way  to   stimulate  , than reassess and see, whether your limiter  has changed.

Example:
 Your  limitation may be   utilization  due to  not  enough  mitochondria density. Now  you  can go  different ways , as we know on how to improve  mitochondria density  and it is up  to each coach now  whether he likes  to approach this stimulation  and include  overload  or integration of compensator   or whether he likes specifically  to just  stimulate this idea  with trying  to avoid   using compensator integration.

Another example. Respiratory limitation ( not as a  metaboreflex) but as an actual limitation in the VE   so liter per min.
 Your athlete  has  an incredible great  mitochondria density  and is able  to utilize really  great. cardiac  delivery is great as well but he  simply has a problem to   ventilate   a high enough   volume  to keep  H + balanced  respectively  due to the lack of a high VE  he  collects too much CO2   and is  getting hypercapnic.
. Now  you  can  try to  change this  by  simply  going    above and  beyond  , what some call  VT   or you can  simply go  and train VE  without   loading every time  the cardiac  and muscular systems  to create the high CO2 level. This is a typical  situation  in COPD. We  work fundamentally different with this  clients.
 They stop  walking  and  simply train their  diaphragm.
2  positive reactions.
 We  stop overloading the  kidneys  and we  stop  overloading the right ventricle  of the cardiac system.
Now  we  can  go back and use different ideas on how  to stimulate   the diaphragm  as well as the  increase in VE. This  is than up to each  clinic  or rehab center  based on their experience  and  success.

So  back to your original question.
 Where  do you learn how  to train  with NIRS.
You already  train  so  you simply  follow  what you always  did  and than  reassess and see , whether   the changes  you had in mind really take place,
 There are many great  cook books out  there who tell you  by what  %  of your  classical  test results you will for example improve  your Stroke volume. So start with this, reassess and see, whether it worked . If not you have to change  or look  for a  center  who works  with NIRS  since  some years  and has  their individual  training ideas.
 There is no cook book   for  physiological individual training  and  what works  for  me  may not   work  for you  when looking  at intensities.  That is the beauty of   physiological bio markers.
 Here a short example of a  workout  we will discuss  tomorrow  closer. it is a 30/30 3 sets 3 min rest workout   where Daniele  offered  us  his  data's.  to see.

 So below a  small glimpse  what  his coach  now has and can do  or not.
 What you see is  his first 2x  30 seconds  load  (  I think 400 watt )  and 30 second rest in between.

  1 set start thb  smo2.jpg  Than below   his last 2x  30 seconds load in the first  set of 7  loads  with 30 seconds  rest

1 set end  thb  smo2.jpg  Now  the  workout plan  was  3  sets of  30 seconds  on 30 seconds  of   with 3 min rest in between  and first set 7  reps  of  30 on 30 of  followed  by 2 sets 6  sets with 30 on 30 off. Load  at  400 watt.  So the question than is:
 a)What  was the goal  of this workout. ?
 Why 30 seconds  on  and 30 seconds of ?
Why 3 min rest between  first 7  sets  and than 2  x  6  sets.

So now  you have this data  and you  can have a closer look  depending on the goal you had set  for this type of a workout.
 If  you have planned the changes  you can see   at the start and the end of the graphs  below   than  wow great you achieved   your  goal  with a well defined    program for this  specific  athlete..
 If  you did not  planned this  produced  reactions  than you  now can go back  look at the data's  and  than  try a new  workout, where you may  not simply  push through the plan  but rather look live , whether you still  can achieve the  goal you have set.


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