Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Marcel

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 54
 #1 
Today I tried to see what reading from the Moxy I would get when using electrical muscle stimulation. Its not to validate if EMS works (it could of course be used for that) but in this case to see what happens to tHB and SmO2. Some really interesting and surprising trends. All places on front upper leg.

(c)Marcel Laponder131018Random5999.jpg 

First picture is from a endurance program placed on the upper leg (my wife was the quinea pig on this pic). As the programme progressed she actually started to drop SmO2.

emsendurance.jpg 

Second picture place on me. The first part named warm followed by endurance, this is the same endurance program that was used on my wife (she only had warm up and endurance). You can see the difference between me and my wife. Possibly to do with more fat making it difficultly for the moxy to get a good reading?? (hopefully my wife's not reading this) Still completely different reaction using EMS between two people! I then continue to a resistance programme. As soon as I stopped the EMS at the end SmO2 down? But between the endurance and strength prog SmO2 went up? You can see where the EMS device pulsed to contract the muscle and where the recovery phase was.

EMSEndStrRest.jpg 

Last picture I used a active recovery programme. Accordingly to the EMS manual this program allows increased blood flow. I was expecting to see a increase in tHB. Rather there was a very slight increase in SmO2. But you can see where the recovery program changed to a different freq how SmO2 jumped. It seems that If I had a goal to increase oxygenation and tHB for recovery then I need to find a program that mimics the recovery pulses from the strength or endurance program which seems to have a more dramatic effect but this could also be dew to the super compensation effect from the high muscle contraction.

EMSactiverec1.jpg 

Any one else tried something similar and seen diffrent results to what you had expected. Thoughts? 










Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
Marcel thanks so much will compare with my  same  ideas I used on a Compex  equipment.
 Will be fun to compare  and yes  it is as well an interesting ideas to see, what the therapy   and what the real story tells us as well the difference between different people.
 Thanks so much and that is exactly what we where looking for   over a year ago when staring the idea  with different people   and now we get feedback from practical applications  for actual users rather than just theory.
 Thanks so much   .
 Marcel   the European feedback works well.
 Juerg
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Marcel, can you sent me the cvs file as I like to  see some additional trends there. If you still have them.
 Thanks for this great pictures as they pretty much overlap  with what I saw.
 There are indeed some  very  clear open questions  , when using this idea.
 ? What questions go through your head ?
Marcel

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 54
 #4 
Juerg, Ive sent you the CSV files. Many questions...What I am thinking is that some of the EMS program are perhaps not what they say they are or one would expect. Different freq affect SmO2 differently. Example in some of the pain relief programs that I have used for back pain I often have seen better results from EMS than from a physio. So If I was to strap moxy on with this pain relief program instead of a active recovery and see what happens then it might get a better blood flow and higher SmO2 result compared to the active recovery for recovery...have to try it and see what happens....but only if higher tHB and SmO2 is what we want for recovery. What of course we don't know and perhaps cant tell with NIRs is what kind of muscle twitching resulting from the EMS is best.

With the sport program as I saw with the previous examples....SmO2 seems to stay very high, perhaps if I had left the EMS running for the full time length then I might have had another trend towards the end. But if what we would expect for a training program where there is a drop in SmO2 then this program might not work for me...again dont know what is happening during the muscle contraction. My wife on the other hand, we saw a drop in SmO2, and I cut this program short so I could try it on my self so not sure how low SmO2 would go. So perhaps that EMS program would have a better effect on her as there was a slightly more stress? 

Then again as EMS does not affect the central nervous system and there isn't really much of the cardiac or respiratory system stressed during EMS which is why it can be used during overtraining or when ill and we cant expect the same SmO2 reactions with EMS compared doing a real life exercise.  For a sport endurance program where we want to develop capillaries and mitochondria we want higher SmO2 or at least not be in so called oxygen debt. So perhaps the endurance program wont suit my wife if that was her goal to develop that as her SmO2 was dropping...although hers was still above base line before I cut it short.... But now with moxy it opens up many questions even if it is not to validate EMS but to perhaps to see what would work best for different people as results can be different for different people. Need to make a few more trials, not entirely sure what to make of it.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
Marcel ,
 all excellent questions  and we have to wrap our brain around  in theory but more important in practical applications.
 The feedback loop to the CG  is a big question here fro sure.
 What you can try is :
 Run n a strength program on a leg  fro 5 - 6 minute and than " copy it  with the same time units   the  equipment gives you but you do the contraction with out equipment.
 Leave the MOXY   straped on as well the EMS just shut it down. So some contractions done  by  EMS  , than the same  time units but you do it.. This way  we have a direct comparison  on what is going on  metabolically   when we compare EMS and  actual physiological contraction.
 One other way you can try is to make an isometric contraction  naturally and  with the EMS  for a duration of  30 - 45 sec  and than compare the reaction So many fun experiments   you can do.
 One thing we have to remember. :
 A high SmO2   not   always means a good situation  as a high SmO2  in some cases means a  bad ability to use O2.
 Here an example  from another  great coach. S.M. This  data's show a person in an IPAHD  5/1/5  and as we can observe  a initial  incredible drop in SmO2 followed by a steady increase and incredible high O2  saturation  at the end of a test.
 So a very  big utilization problem.
 This is a picture I see very often with out of shape people, overweight and  respiratory problems ( CHRS).
 They  have lot's of O2  but simply can't use it out of different reasons.
 The main problem is, as they can't use O2  optimal it is very hard for them to ever get  O2  and FFA going as a possible energy source.
 This is an example, where we will see a high or even increase in SmO2    which  in the first idea would indicate a lot of O2  there  so no need to  use glucose O2 independent but we really will see lactate  very high as a bio marker.
In other cases we will see a drop in SmO2   and than a very low SmO2  and again a  high lactate ?
 Why  and  what happens. ?

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: Kris_SM.jpg, Views: 31, Size: 57.80 KB 

Marcel

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 54
 #6 
Ok I tried the: "Run n a strength program on a leg  fro 5 - 6 minute and than " copy it  with the same time units   the  equipment gives you but you do the contraction with out equipment.
 Leave the MOXY   strapped on as well the EMS just shut it down. So some contractions done  by  EMS  , than the same  time units but you do it.. This way  we have a direct comparison  on what is going on  metabolically   when we compare EMS and  actual physiological contraction."

Things to note. The right leg plot for the EMS part looks a bit weird compared to the left leg. Possibly slightly different moxy placement. Possibly the EMS current hit the muscle a bit more direct on the left leg placement area so bigger result. But voluntary contraction again in the right leg seem to be more pronounced.

Placed on Right leg. Right leg only had strength program from the EMS no resistance program.
13oct21ems.jpg 



Placed on left leg. Strength 2.5min vs resistance 2.5min. Resistance program looks more promising. 
13oct21ems2.jpg 






Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #7 
Marcel watch the pic  and look the black circle. What do you see in the trend of Green  ( SmO2  and  brown tHb ?
  Can you sent me the cvs  file as I like to exactly look at this place closer  at it may be a very interesting   part of the EMS  versus the  voluntary   contraction.
 Second  make  some squatting instead of just contraction so load  so we see how you deoxygenate there  compare to the EMS.
Andri and I working for the moment n a simple guide  for  moxy user  starter   idea  and  this  part is a very interesting part , when we look certain type of workouts.  Hope to have most finish this week and  hopefully in different languages  ( German, Italian, French  and see, whether we can talk out Norwegian friends in  for a Norwegian version as well and  some east European   translations as well.  Keep  tuned in as the MOXY  users are growing fast.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: ems_and_voluntary.jpg, Views: 18, Size: 50.48 KB 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #8 
Marcel here a study   in this direction:
 

Send to:

 
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2008 Feb;102(3):289-97. Epub 2007 Oct 13.

Electrostimulation improves muscle perfusion but does not affect either muscle deoxygenation or pulmonary oxygen consumption kinetics during a heavy constant-load exercise.

Source

Faculté de Médecine de Marseille, Centre de Résonance Magnétique Biologique et Médicale, UMR CNRS 6612, 27 Bd Jean Moulin, 13005, Marseille, France. gwenael.layec@medecine.univ-mrs.fr

Abstract

Electromyostimulation (EMS) is commonly used as part of training programs. However, the exact effects at the muscle level are largely unknown and it has been recently hypothesized that the beneficial effect of EMS could be mediated by an improved muscle perfusion. In the present study, we investigated rates of changes in pulmonary oxygen consumption (VO(2p)) and muscle deoxygenation during a standardized exercise performed after an EMS warm-up session. We aimed at determining whether EMS could modify pulmonary O(2) uptake and muscle deoxygenation as a result of improved oxygen delivery. Nine subjects performed a 6-min heavy constant load cycling exercise bout preceded either by an EMS session (EMS) or under control conditions (CONT). VO(2p) and heart rate (HR) were measured while deoxy-(HHb), oxy-(HbO(2)) and total haemoglobin/myoglobin (Hb(tot)) relative contents were measured using near infrared spectroscopy. EMS significantly increased (P < 0.05) the Hb(tot) resting level illustrating a residual hyperaemia. The EMS priming exercise did not affect either the HHb time constant (17.7 +/- 14.2 s vs. 13.1 +/- 2.3 s under control conditions) or the VO(2p) kinetics (time-constant = 18.2 +/- 5.2 s vs. 15.4 +/- 4.6 s under control conditions). Likewise, the other VO(2p) parameters were unchanged. Our results further indicated that EMS warm-up improved muscle perfusion through a residual hyperaemia. However, neither VO(2p) nor [HHb] kinetics were modified accordingly. These results suggest that improved O(2) delivery by residual hyperaemia induced by EMS does not accelerate the rate of aerobic metabolism during heavy exercise at least in trained subjects.

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter - Quick-counter.net