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thigger

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 #1 
I've been experimenting with the Moxy as a training target.

Plan for this treadmill run was to use the Moxy to keep it easy - let the SmO2 get nice and high, and back off if it started to drop. It seemed like a success - SmO2 took an initial dip, then as I warmed up it started to rise (it was below freezing in my garage). I played with the pace slightly but in the end decided not to go faster as I started to feel my breathing would become less 'conversational'.

At the end of the 2hr session I was concerned that the Moxy had been almost static on 90%SmO2 for a very long time and picked up the pace for 1 minute - but the SmO2 barely dropped (tHb did start to decline rapidly though)

I'm confused as to how best to interpret this. Moxy was on my VL as normal, and with intervals at that pace I would normally expect to see SmO2 drop quite severely. Was I just thoroughly vasodilated/warmed up from the previous two hours so I just didn't wait long enough to see the SmO2 shift much? It was heading downwards - just not in the way I'd expect.

Thanks for any thoughts. CSV data enclosed.


Easy run.png 

 
Attached Files
csv Easy_run.csv (612.33 KB, 14 views)

sandor

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 #2 
Are the SmO2 numbers being normalized somehow?

i only ask because the numbers seem much different to the 5-1-5 you posted. if so, this could have a dramatic effect on the final graph.


[image] 
thigger

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 #3 
That 5-1-5 is from cycling (albeit with the moxy in the same location). I did post a running one in the same thread - demonstrating I can get the SmO2 below 10 either running or cycling!
juergfeldmann

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 #4 
This  would be  considered  and Ernst  v. Aaken   super oxidation run.
Google   one of the many early ideas of  O2  runs.

 Here  just short  some  interesting points.
old  5  step.jpg



Remember this   from    you . Check starting 2 loads  SmO2  values

Let's look SmO2  start  situation

smo2  thb all.jpg


let's look  HR  and SmO2 trend
hr    smo2.jpg 
And  a  closer look  at  tHb reaction when looking in a biased  situation.
bias all.jpg
  Now important  if you like to have feedback on your  vascularisation  and we discuss this  later on Andrews   topic is.
 1. Always  calibrate your body  for 1 - 3 min before your workout. It is interesting, that  when we use  a  wattage trainer  we  really  take care on calibration but when it comes  to the body  we simply go.
  why ?
2. end calibration  so at the end   stop  get rid of  as much muscle tension as you can   so we see  thB  and   SmO2  reaction. In this case SmO2  was  top already  but tHB ???
 The fact , that  you had a negative  tHb  over the  whole run  so you   just towards  the end had the same tHb as at the start

3.  always be skeptical if  SmO2 is  so flat   but tHb  looks like a very  real reaction.
 S    during a  run  where you plan a  ARI intensity as this  was  active  recovery   with physiologically . possibly not mechanical  as it was  very long.  Now  for us this is the  speed  where we  can trigger  what ever we like  to trigger as we  do not push  any system to its limitation. So  many options  during a run.
 If you   not  trust the SmO2  value   simple  add every 5  - 10 min a  short    systemic  delivery problem  and  create a  utilization  demand  and you can see  , whether SmO2  reacts  ( keep  same pace so you are sure it is  the  systemic  reaction and not  due to a  performance ( load  ) change  you created.), this   can be done   on a VL  as in this case  or on a  less involved  muscle  if you use  this  for  guidance.


S.M.

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 #5 
"The fact , that  you had a negative  tHb  over the  whole run  so you   just towards  the end had the same tHb as at the start"

I'm interested in exploring this more.
juergfeldmann

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 #6 
Sandy    right  track  you are on   and not surprising  for me. Here some hints.
 Check  HR  and  think  CO.   think   slow running  and eccentric loads  than  combine the ongoing  battle between   constriction  due to   for  example  mechanical  but  as well other reasons  and  than  look   what would create a vasodilatation  reaction. Combine  them  and see what  may  come up individually.
 This than opens  the discussion on the   end results  of  "too " slow  runs.  What do they possibly  trigger  and what  do they possibly  do NOT  achieve.  When  to use them  and how to enhance them.  I will come back  (  promise )  on this  ideas  as we have some interesting data  from a track coach.
 The critical question there  seems to me .  why 5  x 200 m.
  so  why 5  and why 2 00 m  and  why walking  to finish the loop  so  able to start again  by the 200 m start. What are the physiological ideas behind sixths    type of a workout  and what was the goal  of the workout in the first place.
S.M.

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 #7 
Steph R200116.PNG 
Here is an easy run workout for an athlete in recovery after a hard training week with the instruction to achieve the highest SmO2.  tHb is lower than she started.  Athlete ran on the treadmill and kept slowing down to see if she could get a higher SmO2.  Perceived exertion and HR were extremely low.

I would suspect in this case as in thigger`s that CO was not enough to overcome localized muscular compression while running. One way to trigger a vasodialation without changing the speed of the run would be to hold her breath, increasing CO2 which should increase tHb.  Doing that should show a drop in SmO2.

The question of what do they trigger.....this seems similar to the Blood Flow Restricted training that was discussed in this weeks webinar where super slow activity combined with localized muscle compression showed improvements in muscular strength and VO2 peak.  

What they don't achieve.....I don't think it does a great job of clearing metabolic waste from the system with a reduced blood flow which essentially the workouts purpose was.

(sorry if this strays from the intent of this thread)

juergfeldmann

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 #8 
Sandy    great  feedback  and yes  to all.  When we  test  SEMG in very slow ( too slow  ) runs  we have a minimal lower SEMG  than when going  faster , but we have a very low CO  . The  high SEMG in super slow runs  creates still a  high eccentric  and possibly  even higher eccentric  muscle contraction as we artificially   have to  hold back the  center of gravity position. Normally  running is nothing other than avoiding  to fall on your nose,  so you move centre of gravity forward and follow  through with your legs.  . So a top runner in an efficient   speed has a very horizontal  moving centre of gravity. If we go too slow we   start to move the Center of  gravity up and down  and not efficient  forward  which  actually increases the eccentric  load  an as such the  muscle compressions we see in tHb.  It does not need  lots  of O2  so  SmO2  goes  up.
 We  in fact create a natural  BFR  and this  could be one of the reasons  why we see  certainly  in beginners a surprising  increase in  VO2  and strength. What it  shows  as well is, that the idea  of ARI in cycling may work  due to the  equipment, but in running too slow  may be not ARI  but actually work.
 So in running I use MOXY  to see what is  too slow  and what is optimal  for  ARI. Last  part is your  use of respiration in combination  with slow runs. You can use  ARI intensity to play  with hyper or hypo  capnia .  You than will see  changes in tHb  and   SmO2. When you us it in a too slow   running  speed  and you do  hyerpcapnia , you may see a  drop in SmO2  but often not  real change in  tHB  reaction as the  CO2  vasodilatation  still may not overrule the  eccentric   compression.  If you are not  used   to do  hypercapnia  runs  you may see a tHb increase as besides the CO2   vasodilatation you may  have a relative  strong increase in HR  and therefore CO  and this will help to possibly overrule  eccentric  load.
S.M.

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 #9 
Way too cool!! Thank you Jeurg.
juergfeldmann

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 #10 
Your  welcome  Sandy . For all readers  from the   Ontario  area. Sandy is the expert in MOXY  out there  and  give her a  call.

 Here some other  interesting  points  to slow running.
The  question we have to ask:
 When is  slow  too slow  so it is not anymore a  recovery run but in fact a  workout ?
We  did  some fun SEMG  stdueis  in different runners  way back in Switzerland.
One of the questions  was  why  do   runners who run very  slow ( possibly  too slow (  actually  breath a higher RF  than  when running   somewhat faster and more efficient.

Here some of the findings  we never  as usual  published , as we where simply interested  to prove  some running workouts  in some of  our top athletes.

Initially  we  simply looked  where everybody would  go and asses. Leg muscels  and  the   findings  were as  explained above. The eccentric load  in too slow  was  at least as high in some of the muscels and depending how  slow  even higher in some muscels  compared to somewhat faster  ( still slow ) but natural  running  motion. The    conclusions    for us  was, that  when doing  LSD  runs    be sure the speed  is so that we use  the   normal  fast  a race  pace   muscle  chains  and  do not create a muscle dysbalnce.
Here   two  small examples  on what you may see in runners  who  have  2 different " technique's in running. A  long endurance run technique  and a  fast race pace   technique.
If  we use the idea  as often used  of  80  baseline  20 %    race   pace  or close to race pace  and we  do not  recognise  that the runner  has two different techniques we may be up  for some surprises.
 Extreme example. You are a cross country  skier   lover  to race  sprint s  so   skating technique  but you train  80 %  diagonal  slow    endurance base line . Is that smart ?

So you are  a middle   distance runner  or  a triathlete  doing Olympic  but as well  iron man.
 Be sure  you train the same  technique  no  matter  where and  how the intensity  is.

 Typical over use injuries  when we  have this  problem. Fore or middle foot runners , who suddenly    decide  to  do more  longer slower  runs have to look out  for  Tib.  anterior  compartment syndrome.

Ultrarunner who decide  to  add a few  shorter  runs  for  what ever reason  like 5  km  or  so   have to watch out  for  Achilles tendon   reactions as well as tib posterior   reactions. 

 Now  I got  lost as  much more on this could be added.
The  questions was the respiration   picture.

There was not a direct  answer  to the SEMG  feedbacks on legs.
 However there was a  certain hint.
 Eccentric  load  compared to the same load  concentric  recruit's  less motor units.

Lets' see whether I can explain that  simple. You  od a   leg extension one leg  with 50 kg   you may recruit (  bad number )  100  motor units  to  overcome the   weight  moving against  gravity but as well you have some muscle  tissue internal  friction ( resistance )
 Now  you do the opposite  motion  so you have  50 kg in extension position and lower  down  to    start position ( eccentric  so you muscle  physically  will have to get longer  as  the  two muscle  attachment   will be  going into a bigger  distance but internally you still have to  shorten  sarcomers.
 ( By the way, that's where the  often sued  current model  has some  problems to explain how this happens  and a smart Japanese  guy   had a different proposal but   possibly  overlooked  for  classical believers. )

Now 50 kg eccentric  will recruit less motor units  than the  concentric   motion.
 Our   idea  originally was. Well les motor units  same work  more  H +   production  so more CO2  so   stimulation of  RF.
 Sounds   logic ??

So  could be sold  and if a   great name  would stand  behind this  conclusion it would  be current believes. !!!
 Well not so  fast . We  could not confirm  that  with  any CO2  testing nor  with lactate  accumulation  .
 What about using  NIRS  and assess the SmO2  reaction combined  with the tHb ?
 Try  as it is fun and  you all know  can  make  great interpretations.

 Now   at that time we had  no NIRS so  we  argued  to  see, what happens  with respiratory  muscle activity  when running too slow  versus  efficient  slow.
  Here what  we found in many cases. ( not all  so no cook book  )
 In the  too slow  run idea  wee had a relative high  SEMG  activity in the rectus  abdominis  versus very little  to non in the efficient  running  speed.
 Every landing in the too slow  speed  created  spike in abdominal  activity .  So  rectus abdominis  is an   antagonist of the diaphragm and as  such   the athlete  reduced the    basal  diaphragm     activity   where we would have the most efficient   gas exchange as the capillarisation is the  highest in the basal  area  of your lungs,  compared to the apical sections.
 This created  a   lower TV  so higher RF so higher  dead space %  so    slightly increase in  CO2  and higher RF  therefor as well.
Sounds  interesting  but  there was  one problem.
 When we tested  CO22  than we  had some athletes , who  actually  where  hypocapnic, meaning the  respiration  was   so high in RF  that they actually had a  lower  than  normocapnic  EtCO2   they where closer  to  30 mmHg. As the speed was  slow enough they did not had a   bad feeling  . What we saw  now here is that  hypocapnic    slow  runners had a  very high  SpO2  versus  hyper cpnaic  slow runners  who had a   lower than normal  SpO2.
.  @0 years later    when we   revisited  this idea by using  NIRS  we had  the  answers  from a physiological point of  view.
 Hyper capnic   slow runners  will show  what kind  off a SmO2  trend if ?
  So  what    will   hypercapnic  runners  show  up  with ?
Than  combine the  possible reactions  with the tHb trend.
 Now  use this findings  and you see,  why  zonings ideas  based on  performance  are  a very rudimental  idea of using physiological reaction  to reach certain  physiological  goals.
 Zoning based on performance are simple easy to calculate,  but  have  some major  risks  and  problems involved .

Why  do we use them  still for  anything we do :
 1. Easy  to reach,  go  and  push a  limit. Name it 100 %  . take a calculator   and name the  zoning  based on %.
If you like to create  a name  for  your idea  add  an additional %  zoning  so it looks more  accurate  as the steps are  smaller
 Than add some  relative logic  soundings   idea on what  each calculated   Zone  suppose to stimulate  ,put it in    number order  and sell it so it looks organised   and  systematic.
. Advanatge .
No  questions  asked  as  nobody  can argue on a calculated number, it is what it is.
 No  questions  asked  whether  80 %  of  the 100 %  believe realy  stimulates  what  is on the  chart.
 You go  80 %  and I go  80 %  and  we will have the same  adaptation ????
It  has to be  as  hundreds  and thousand  of  studies  are based on this believe that  80 %  is  for all the same  intensity !!!
As we do not ask  this questions , we  do not have to discuss the options  and   if we  can avoid a  discussion  we  can sell it better as it is  more believe than reality   but it works.
 Will be back on the track  workout  as well in the  cross-country  ski  section on that interesting  discussion.
juergfeldmann

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 #11 
Here  an additional small  add on  to the idea of  eccentric   as well as  changing   movement techniques  like   from  slow run to  faster run  and  how it may effect  mussel chains  as well as energy demand.

First the cool  idea   produced  by  Hans  Hoppeler  at the anatomical institute in Bern Switzerland. I  visited him , when he worked  on this idea.  some years  back.

Eccentric   cycling to increase   maximal strength. Here the bike  with a   MTB  national team member form Switzerland.

eccentric bike.jpg

And here  the result  of  an overloaded  eccentric    muscle workout  out  of  Hollmann /Hettinger.

eccentric muscle dammage.jpg
How  do you think  a NIRS  reaction prior  and after this  will change ? Once you have this  you can see how resting  feedbacks  can give you some answers on, whether you  are recovered or not  after  certain workouts.

Last  part here a  nice    feedback on   efficiency  on walking  and running  and how they overlap.

Hollman walk jog.jpg

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