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S.M.

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 #1 
Here are two pictures of clients (male and female, husband and wife actually) who raced a short duathlon.  It is slightly rolling terrain with a nasty head wind and they both ride triathlon specific bikes in the tri bars.

Rick Cookie May 12 2015.PNG 
Diane Cookie May 12 2015.PNG 
Both did Ironman last year, one has more experience and is also an ultra runner.  I found the differences in SmO2 at the bike turnaround most interesting.  

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #2 
Sandy  do you have the csv  file  to look something closer ? great    data  and  thanks  so much  for sharing this here.
Juerg Feldmann

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 #3 
Here very short.
1. look at the  " end  sprint" of both. What  can you see is different  besides the  clear  delivery limitation so   move over to utilization at the end.

2.  look at the trends  (  amplitude  change in SmO2  and tHb  in both)  ???

 3. look at  1 km  run  and  last  section run  ( 3 km    and the SmO2 trend. Why is it lower in the 1 km  run ?  Now this is  what i call a  real assessment. You can instead of  having any   crazy  manipulated protocol an assessment done  during a race  and than  look at the same  way as we look at TIP  and  try   to  find out  what has  caused a potential limitation or  what  was  she or he  pushing to the reach of  at least a limiter  if  and if they over reached  so moved into the FEI  what helped  to compensate.

 Sandy  do you have the  HR  of this as well ?

4. Last point. If you can   try to get   a  second  moxy on a  little to minimal involved  muscles in this case  delta  pars  acromialis  so we  as well have feedback  easy and fast whether there is  a more systemic  limitation or more a  local   limitation   reached in a race.
Ruud_G

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 #4 
Wrt 1) compression outflow for the woman (drop SmO2 and thb seem at the same point) and CO overrule for the man (thb going upward seems to be delayed to drop in SmO2) ?
Ruud_G

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 #5 
Also something nice (but maybe a bit of topic) is this one: http://www.physoc.org/press-release/2015/oxygen-uptake-respiratory-muscles-differs-between-men-and-women-during-exercise
Juerg Feldmann

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 #6 
Ruud  great   article  and I like  to add some more in that directions.
 There is a fundamental difference  when training a  female  and  male  athletes  for respiration.
 here a great  study  form UBC   out of Vancouver  but the   top research  is coming  from Dempsey  and   others  and the ETH  in =Zurich  Switzerland  with Boutellier  and Spengler  , who are the Brains  behind the Spiro Tiger    respiratory  concept.
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jordan_Guenette/publication/5274503_Mechanics_of_breathing_during_exercise_in_men_and_women_sex_versus_body_size_differences/links/0deec5320bcf598b29000000.pdf
S.M.

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Posts: 65
 #7 
This is very exciting.  I have 4 men and 4 women that all train with Moxy and it is very interesting to see the differences in the running feedback we get.  Here is a second woman that competed in the same event.

Steph Cookie 051215.PNG 
All three went out without a warm up and it was very cool and windy.  They are all mid-packers so go out "moderately" however they are competitive with each other.  I do not have any heart rate numbers but here is their perspective when asked about their perceived exertion.
1st female:  "The race felt great - after I finished!!! XXXX accused me of going too fast just so I could beat him. (Perhaps ) I should have grabbed a water to bring on the last run bc even thought I drank on the bike my calf was getting the slightest twinge like it could have cramped if I had to run any further. (It was cold and I didn't think I needed it.)
Male:  "I was basically going as hard as I could. Still don't think I'm recovered yet. We'll see tomorrow..."
2nd female: "I didn't put it all out on the first run, worked hard on the bike; high STEI, low FEI then maybe high FEI on the run. Overall 6 or 7 out of 10 for an RPE"


S.M.

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Posts: 65
 #8 
Not to detract from the duathlon conversation because I am intrigued to see where this goes but if women have a "higher metabolic cost to breathing" would that not be seen as a lower SmO2?  

Typically the 4 women I coach that have Moxy's will have SmO2's in the 90's regardless of whether they are running for 30 minutes or for 5 hours.  They have all done ultra training and we work on the Intensity workouts (30 seconds all out until....) and think it's a great day when we can desaturate into the 70's.  So playing with this myself over the past few weeks I'm wondering (and this may be a "well duh" comment) if what we see as high SmO2 with an "impaired" ability to desaturate is really athletes that have become super efficient at using their slow twitch muscles to provide energy for ultra endurance while their fast twitch and intermediate fibers have become very lazy through inactivity. 
S.M.

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 #9 
One other comment.  As you can see on the male's and 2nd females turnaround SmO2 shoots up and 1st females goes down.  The male and 2nd female wear their Moxy on their right leg and because they were turning left had the left leg up, right leg down.  The first female wears her's on her left leg (right leg has a tattoo and the Moxy wouldn't read properly) also making a left turn with the left leg up, right down.   
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #10 
hmmm super  fun    and I need  time  to give some decent  thoughts  to all of this. I am playing  since a few  hours  n it  and  have many questions  opened  by now. will be back but need  more time.
Juerg Feldmann

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 #11 
Sandy  , here some thoughts s  but most likely  not an answer.
 
Not to detract from the duathlon conversation because I am intrigued to see where this goes but if women have a "higher metabolic cost to breathing" would that not be seen as a lower SmO2? 

As usual  yes   and no ( perhaps )
 here first  a general  study  on the  change in  O2   use    from the respiratory systems ( muscles )
resp  muscel blod  flow.jpg 

Now the next  information is  like  all I show  you here never  published so not  existing  and somebody  with credential  may have to    do that  to be an  accepted  paper. Nevertheless  it  is  a  fun case  or study  I did in Spain many years back
 We  where a part of  an organization  running  cycling / triathlon / running /  Nordic walking camps.
 So I had the advantage  to  assess ( testing) at that time daily 15 - 20 people over a  span of  2  -3  month.
 At that time  we used VO2, lactate  than later  Physio flow and NIRS and we " sold"  depending on the current trend in exercise  physiology  ideas like %  of VO2  max,  220 - age, lactate threshold  first starting by 4 mmol initially and than developed the lactate balance point  idea.
 And  than  started  to take  all our own ideas apart as you can see on this  forum or  on the old fact- Canada  forum.
 So  what  I did  on  ll this test  was as well assessing VC ( vital capacity  and VC  1  or tiffenau test ), the volume  they could breath out in the first second   from the VC. Example  4 liter  VC  80 %  VC  1  =  how many liter in the first second. We use  some of this information  for  the development of a  respiratory training with the Spiro Tiger.

 Than I used  a bio harness or sometimes  2  at the same time  to see, where the expansion of the thorax  or abdomen  would take place.
 In the olden days  we used a  tape measure and would  do respiratory  localization assessments .
 In short I was  interest  to see, whether male  and female  athletes  in cycling would;d  have a different location  in their    air flow in the thorax. Same  as I was interested  whether  running  an biking would show  in the same person a different  air  location flow.
 What  do I mean  with " location. hmm here a  simple picture  which  may explain  it the best.
breathing  couple.jpg 

 

now  different   RF (  speed ) will show  up in the bioharness as a different picture
sinewave_graph_final.jpg 

 Now  by changing position and sport  we  seem to change  zone  of perfusion much more than we  actually are aware of..
 This than changes  a lot in how  and  where we  exchange O2  and CO2.
gas exchnage.jpg 

zone of perfusion.jpg 


Now  the  exchange area in running and  biking  are  often  very different even in the same person.
 The result can easy be followed  when you do a VO2  assessment  with MOXY.
 You than can see how TV ( tidal volume   or  air  volume per breath)  will change  and how it interacts  with  breathing frequency.


Attention  " cook book "
  In  many cases  in running we  breath  faster  and less deep  so higher RF  and lower TV  we as well  breath more  apical   and  earlier integration of  auxiliary muscles  easy to see on  the neck when this happens.

 In cycling  bigger TV  and lower  RF  and   more   use  of  abdominal respiration so  with the diaphragm.
  Now   what I  could see.
 In woman's  we see  much less variation between  running and  cycling  and we see   much less  abdominal respiration.
  so less  involvement    of  diaphram.
 More  apical  and sternal  respiration.
 This    means that in woman's  I see much earlier involvement of    respiratory  helper  like the neck muscles ,which really are helpers  as  such  an use much more O2    for the same  volume  of air  to be moved , that  when we use the diaphram.
 As well the  costo-vertebral motion  needs  more  force  to be moved    compared to the  abdominal  respiration.
.
 So the   higher VO2  as  shown in many accepted studies   has to be somehow  explained  and   my observation could be a start of  it.
 When we than started  to train female  cyclists  and   athletes  with Spiro Tiger we suddenly had   for the same  body  size    the same  VC  as we had in male  athletes  same  approximately body size.
 It just  locks" ugly"  when you breath abdominal. But look in the  Giro now  how they breath  and where. Summary :
  Sandy  yes  we would expect  a  drop in  SmO2  if respiration is less efficient.
 Now  this would only apply if  the resp[iration is a limiter.  otherwise  it  simply uses  more O2  but may not  create a problem  as long  the balance of  H +  can be maintain  with the VE  they can move
 Next up  your  next  great feedback.  Not  to distract  from duathlon ( Smile ) ha ha  we are  already  lost But who cares..
So  if we  use    for example  sterno cl mast.
 we  will see  a  much earlier  deoxygenation in this  muscle  compared  to intercostal  in womens  than in mens.
 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #12 
Now  just  when I pushed reply  I    got in my head  already  some   " critic"  on this.
 Here  just short.
 In  female athletes  I    see less " fatigue  of the diaphragm  due to the integration of  auxiliary muscles  and in males  we see an  earlier  fatigue in diaphragm.
 second  in women I see more often the risk of hypocapnic  respiration than in males  and in pregnant  women  this can have a  risk  situation  for the    baby  due to the change in  O2  disscurve  of the mother  to the left.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #13 
Typically the 4 women I coach that have Moxy's will have SmO2's in the 90's regardless of whether they are running for 30 minutes or for 5 hours.  They have all done ultra training and we work on the Intensity workouts (30 seconds all out until....) and think it's a great day when we can desaturate into the 70's.  So playing with this myself over the past few weeks I'm wondering (and this may be a "well duh" comment) if what we see as high SmO2 with an "impaired" ability to desaturate is really athletes that have become super efficient at using their slow twitch muscles to provide energy for ultra endurance while their fast twitch and intermediate fibers have become very lazy through inactivity.


That is a super interesting  observation and would  confirm  and add to our  big  question  why ? It as well  will open  a very critical  question on  STF  and FTF  fibers  involvement  and as  such  who uses  O2 and when.
 Before we  go and speculate and discuss this  situation we  as well have to be critical on location  of  MOXY  and gender difference in subcutaneous fat layers.
So  first and foremost ,if you have little do non  SmO2  changes , than  check  with a  fat   caliper  ( cheap version ) the skin fold  and than  see, whether the skin fold  thickness is more than the  light source  distance  for the  penetration depth of your NIRS.
  So the distance  of the  2  extreme  light source  to the receiver  with 2  gives  you the approximate   penetration depth. Now  when you make a skin  fold  depending on the  caliper  remember  that sometimes  you have to dived  with  2  to have the proper ideas.

  This is one of the problem  with the NIRS  and relative obese people. In some women  the thigh is not  always the optimal location. ( Sorry )

 Now  here what we see  and need  much more  information.
 We have  to  categories of  athletes or people showing this interesting situation.
 They may start  with  70 +- SmO2  ans    start to increase  SmO2  up to a very high level 85   +  and stay there with a very small minimal  drop at the end of a    5/1/5  or  at the end of  along run like a marathon  even with an end sprint. ???
 This  is  in  super  high  trained  endurance athletes  like 100 mile runners  and  top Cross country skier  50 km  and  marathon runners  and iron man  people. In women  even more common than in  males.
 The second  group is  super out  of show e people show the same trend.

 How  come ?
 Now  to make the stroy even sweater.
 Many years  back  , when we   all believed  in lactate  we had a similar open question  but never got a  smart answer.
 I remember testing  the fastest     white marathon runner    with a 2.11 time in japan  and  what ever we tried  no matter how hard  we  would  push him an dhe  copudl push himself  we never got a higher lactate level than  3 +-   a little lactate. Same in a  top 50 km  cross country  medal winner  at a  winter Olympic.
 Same  with some  Kenyan    top  Marathon  runners.
 Always  very low  lactate values compared  with  other top athletes.
 We  and the highest lactate e values in ice hockey player  and 400 m runner  ( my personal best  number I ever tested  was in a Swiss  400  and 800 m runner  with over 24  mmol lactate..
 he felt supper easy  and great  with a  value  of  5 - 8 mmol  and would go for ever.
 They   all did not fit in the theories  so we  simply  moved this values under the table  as we  could not  decently explained the values.
 Now in MOXY  we have ultra  distance runner  with  very high SmO2  and  " problems"  to de-saturate  at the end of  long runs  races  and sometime s even in  tests.
 . Than we have  ice hockey players  and weight lifters and  cyclist  who can drop SmO2  super low  down.
 Question. Would we not expect  that  athletes  with  a  very high STF   situation would love  and could use  O2  perfect  and   on the other side  low  STF  and  high FTF a  and x  fiber    athletes would   have more problem  to  use O2.

 Or  . as we do not just test Hb  but as well  O 2 on Mb?
  is here a potential explanation to be used. that  ice hockey players  or    people able  to drop SmO2  very low  may  shift the O2  diss curve much further  to the right  and  the pO2  can d drop  further  and finally they may start  to use O 2 from the  myoglobin as well. Time  and further research may tell.

Here a  small support  from that, that we  where not that nuts  with the observation in low lactate values in top runners from an accepted  study

lactate korir.jpg

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #14 
Sandy   was NOT  detracted   and will be back on the duathlon data  as they are super  great thanks so much  for sharing them  and we  will have  fun to look  closer on some options  we  have  form the  data.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #15 
Okay  duathlon 

Typically the 4 women I coach that have Moxy's will have SmO2's in the 90's regardless of whether they are running for 30 minutes or for 5

 Now  look in this  2  womens in case they are  2  of the  4 you work  with.

smo2  all three.jpg
    One of the three is a guy  and 2  are  women.
 Now  what is interesting, that the  high SmO2  just  only  is  showing up  in the  second run. In fact really the guy shows a  similar situation where SmO2 in the second  run is much higher than in the first  run  and bike. When we look   at this from a  very basic  idea.
 the first run and bike  for all three was more a delivery limitation an the  last run  section was more a utilization limitation. More  to come  with thoughts on that.
Now  to just keep all together  look at the tHb trends and what can you read out of this ?

tHb all three.jpg

 Now as usual  we do it back wards  so lets start at the end  section  ( perhaps  end sprint )  of this tree  Du-athletes.
  I   looked at the last three minutes  of the race.
 Now lot's  of assumptions here.
 so important  when yo use  MOXY  after the finish line, stop completely  for  at least 1 min  before you start  moving again  . it is the same reason as we have in a TIP.  One minute so   no  actual physiological reason but easy to  be used.

 I   let the regular readers  jump in here.
  here  first    3 min  end  section tHb  and SmO2  trends. ( remember    nice would be to have HR  when you do an interpretation as well as  actual speed   in comparison to the  run so did  they   attempted  to  do an end sprint  and  was it just the feeling of  an end sprint  but not efficient  or  did  they really increased  performance (speed )
  below  SmO2  over the last 180  second  moxy recording.

all three  endsprint.jpg 
Below   same  idea on tHb

all three  thb endsprint.jpg

Now  below a closer look at each athlete in tHb  and SmO2. I a made  some  hints   red dotted lines  on where  something happened  try  to follow my thoughts.

frist  end  sprint.jpg 


now below the second  end  sprint

second  end  sprint.jpg 


and last but not least the third  person

third  end  sprint.jpg 
Now  you can under certain   situations use this  section like we look at a TIP 5/1/5  at the 1 min rest  reaction. Than you  can get   a surprisingly interesting   numbers of  answers  on the  performance  limitation in this athletes. Now  as  so often it is your turn  to cook. I gave  you the  cookware  and you    bring back your  own  goodies  to be served individual.

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