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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #1 
Chris sent me the  MOXY  file  again on the drop box and I will show on here what you did  . Great  test good data's now what  do you do with it . It was a 3 min step test I guessed but messed up the file so need it again.
 After that we will together designer the IPAHD  section  for a MOXY assessment  5/1/5 and show it here as well
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #2 

Thanks Chris  for the resent of your data's.
 Now here no a critic when I use  information's but as  an open  discussion for anybody.
 I show you here first some data collections used  in many centers.

 Picture 1.
  Question? What do we really do with them.
 Than I  show you picture 2 the SmO2  MOXY info  only  from the same person with  some questions.
 This would be a MyPAHD, meaning you only use Watt and MOXY and you get this simple fast easy  and perhaps  somewhat more information.
 The info than leads Chris to a reassessment of this client with a UrPAHD  with any additional info's we can get . Nice would be  direct info from Fit Mate VE  and RF ( TV)  and VO2   for fun but as well lactate   every 5 min in the 1 min rest  fro now m to show , that we  not need  to poke people anymore  once you are familiar with IPAHD and MOXY integration to your existing VO2 information.
 Picture 3 than is a closer look ate O2 Hb and HHb  from the same  Client  and again some open discussion.
  Lats but not least. The MOXY MyPAHD 3 min test is not that great either, it gives you trends but leads us to the individual   protocol  from this client and than we see, where we have the individual  intensities combined with VO2 equipment info to design any kind o  training you like to  do.
 

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Second My PAHD from NZ  by Chris Willet
Thanks Chris great work. Here a start to this second test and it will produce a load of great information and critical  questions and remarks. See document to download  and you can play with it.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #4 
Let's try this here to see a reaction.
 What can wwe really do with a 3 min step test to extract  physiological infos . ( including the  datas we get  from MOXY or NIRS in a 3 min step test?)

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #5 
Here the next  piece in the puzzle . Same case study from NZ
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #6 
Okay here a question ( Not just for Chris ) but for all readers using a classical 3 min step test.
 I am sure by working over many years on this versions, we  have a lot of answers to my question.
 1. What can you really read out from the 3 min step test we see below..
 What can we read out of the incredible amount of data's we now can collect . So help and  let's look at critical , how much is  simply data collection  and impressive, when selling a blood gas / lactate test.  blood involved and a mask on and we look pretty sophisticated do we. BUT  ???
 So let's not as a critic but as a step towards what we like to achieve look at  some of the 3 min step tests we got.
 Unfortunately we have  only from Chris some raw VO2 data's ( Thanks Chris but no lactate info.
We will get many more test in this week  mainly from NEXT LEVEL SP ( Brian Kozak) but have a wealth of data's now from the USA ( Clint , thanks so much ) Now from Chris.
 We still miss information from more USA  people   from their use of MOXY and the positive and negative info we  like to have, as well from the UK and from Canada. So hopefully we get  some  results in from them as well but we are already in stage 2 of the data collection so any other info is very welcome.

So here look at the incredible information and data's we have  and try to explain how they  can help you or us for setting up a individual training sheet.

For readers confused on what they did. It is  an old idea of  my lactate balance point test. They do a classical 3 min step test as you can see and at the end  ( what and however we define the end of the 3 min they drop to a certain intensity down and start a second step test but  often with longer steps. 5 min. How far down do we drop after the first time.
 Well that is a great question . How far do we load in the first  step test. Another great question.
 I let this answer by the  BPR ( balance point racing group, as they have  a wealth of experience in that field and run as well certification courses on the LBP idea.
Pic 1  NZ step test + LBP ( No lactate)
Pic 2 NZ step test + LBP  ( no lactate )
Pic 3 BPR step test + LBP  with lactate in the second part
Pic 4  BPR step test + LBP with lactate in the second part

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chriswillett

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 #7 
Hi Jeurg,
First off, apologies for the slow reply - been crazy down there in Kiwi-ana, or Middle Earth

Second - yes, scrap the frist half of the data set where SmO2 was around the 85-90 mark - I had attempted to capture a riders data during a criterium race, but we obviously had some issues with that!!

So, if we look at the second part - where you placed your first arrow - that is indeed the start of the 3 min. step test at 60W.

I will go through the PPT you uploaded and respond with some thoughts in the next 24 hours. And will also load 2 more data sets with lactate tonight for some discussion!!

Thanks to Moxy and the great team we are working with
Chris
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #8 
Chris , woww it is amazing , that we get respond from the other side of the world so thanks so much.
 Reality in the idea of open research is, that  you get lots of interest and promises but  the feedback is often zero. Working over 30 years in this field it is nothing new. Open  research creates a lot of behind the scene readers  and "copiers'  but very little  open discussion on where we go wrong  or different and where we as coaches and centers can imp[rove services to the public. There is still a lot of "cooking"  in their own kitchen going on. despite that we all just cook with water, but there is often a desperate  mode of defending what we do  without the open ness for changes  and sometimes improvements, sometimes  wrong directions and stepping back again and reviewing the process.
 I just got an email I will answer today from a University department  for exercise physiology on my take on RQ and VO2 testing.
 In short :
 This is a great example, how the industries producing VO2 equipment high checked science and turned a direct blood gas testing ( invasive ) in a business to make us believe that RER is = RQ even under stress and load. When in fact   with  NIRS and MOXY we have now a tool to show how direct info from the blood  have a lag to show up  in the mask, but as well how direct info in the mask ( FeO2  . EtCO2  have a lag to show up changes in the blood EtaCO2 )
 I will use one of your example , where we can show that just perfect, how  TV and RV influence directly FeO2 and EtCO2  but show very little effect in a short term step due to the lag of the  values in one or the other directions.
 I like as well to show how we where possibly very wrong, when using Spiro Tiger  for Hypo  workouts the way we used it as we where looking the wrong part of the O2 Diss curve and now with MOXY we can show what really happened and how we can make a hypoxy training  beautifully with  and or without Spiro Tiger   in the field  and during workouts.
 You guys have one leading expert in NZ ( Helleman's ()0- And I am just going through many of his  case studies and will replicate some of them to see  what and how we can use NIRS /MOXY to support or to question some of the theoretical ideas.
 Cheers and will keep up with you as we go along.
chriswillett

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Posts: 2
 #9 
Hi Guys,
So here a follow up to this discussion. I have attached a screenshot of some of the data collected in the original step test.
In the powerpoint that Juerg sent through, the 200-220W stage is singled out. Using the FeO2 trend, would you suggest that from a metabolic stand point that we are switching fuel subtrates at that level - from FFA to CHO?? Is it too sweeping a generalisation to say that the downward trend in FeO2 (ie-using more O2 in metabolism) is showing this shift and that the second protocol will confirm this? The respiratory frequency stays relatively 'level' throughout that step so hard to say that that would cause the trend to change??

It will be a couple of weeks before I can do a follow up with this individual - so will be interesting when I get my hands on him again.

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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #10 
First of all Thanks Chris for all your work you do here. Your latest assessment was absolutely great and I will use it in the next few days to again show , whether we are able to design a UrPAHD for this client  based on just MOXY.
 As well great thoughts in your screen shot.
 Allow me to make some loud thinking out of this : Or better loud questions.
1. FeO2 or on the other side EtCO2 are direct as well as indirect data collection .
a) direct as a direct information of the gas exchange  between lung and  outside world ( Mask sensor )
    That means any change in TV ( not in frequency ) will immediately change EtCO2 and FeO2 values.
This due to the ratio of VD /VT ( VD standing for functional dead space. This is actual dead space of the tracheal area plus the additional volume of air in the lungs.
 Example : You have a 4 liter lung . 150 - 200 ml are real DEAD space, meaning that there is no exchange of O2  and or CO2 possible between lung and blood.
 So if you would breathe only 150 ml TV you would slowly increase the CO2 content in the lung and reduce the O2 content  as well. Spiro Tiger user really use this idea to achieve different training goals.
Now an additional space in the lungs, even if it is an active exchange area ,still will work similar as a kind of a collator of CO2 when breathing shallower, as now you collect some CO2  and the next time you increase TV you will see initially a much higher CO2 ( EtCO2) for a few breath before it will turn into a lower EtCO2 if you keep  going to breathe deeper than needed (This is  named hyperventilation). This is often wrongly used in sport. A runner or rower going through the finish line and than collapse and keeps breathing like crazy is not hyper ventilating at all  is very often hypoventilating.
 Hyper ventilation is the situation , where somebody breathes much more than needed in the situation and metabolic demand he or she is. Result a hypocapnia ( low CO2  and than you are getting dizzy )

Now FeO2 or EtCO2 under load are not equal to blood  O2 content blood CO2 content.
Exception is at rest or under very low performance load and than as well only if  TV is stable.
This is the reason why RQ is not equal RER under load but only under rest and there only if there is  at least a 5 min  stable situation.
 Problem : Industry was able over the last 30 - 40 years to slowly make us believe , that RQ =RER under any situations. To have this information on hand is very nice but as well very unlikely. Why : because it gives a very nice information on use of FFA and CHO.
 Problem The overall activity is always mixed with any of this energy sources. The fact, that in many test with have RER above  1 up to 1.4 is  one of the nice feedback, that the additional H + production adds to additional CO2 concentration and therefor lifts  RER far above 1.0
 There are some very nice studies done looking at the idea, whether EtCO2 can give us information on actual blood CO2. With this as well whether FeO2 % we test  can be used. I will show you the study. as it shows nice the idea of EtCO2 and FeO2 % can't be used in a step test as any indication of substrate use . For sure not in 3 min step tests. you will have  very nice ideas on this.
 Your second test is a perfect example, how FeO2 is directly linked to TV and TV is often but not always linked to RF.
 This leads us to the short idea of  Hand Selyes G.A.S again.
I am surprised that I get very little feedback on this work in combination with Walter canon's basic research.
Remember the Alarm Phase
Now any interruption of a homeostasis will create an Alarm phase.
 This is not just when you load more but as well when you suddenly load less.
 De training stress. Example  after an injury like an ACL rupture in a top athlete the  detaining stress has an incredible result on change in metabolic and structural but  first functional reactions.
 I showed one detaining example on here after an ACL injury on the trend in change of oxygenation but as well on SEMG reaction and much more.
Many coaches forget, that we can use a detaining stress to change the athletes ability to react to a new  lower stress than or instead of always train harder and more.
 It is all a question of homeostasis disruption.
 Now  "normally" we try to interrupt homeostasis by loading more.
 This really is NOT a homeostasis disruption, it is an additional load out of a homeostasis.
 A disruption  is a "interruption"  and than a return  back to the same load to see, whether and how the system reacts a second time to the same load.
 The former LBP test  the test we have from Chris  learned us this next thought.
Meaning . n an IPAHD based idea to run a UrPAHD we use exactly that. We create an alarm phase and load more, interrupt this homeostasis to reload and not add load  and than compare first 5 min load to the equal second 5 min load. Once we create a real alarmphasee with overload and than a small " Alarm phase we reload.. In case of lactate. We have a 5 min load and may see any lactate value ( very little info what is going on from one value of one load.
 So after 5min we may have 3.4 but  perhaps by 4 min it was 3.8 so no it is sinking or perhaps it is climbing. By interrupting with a 1 min break and repeating the same load we have a better idea after 10 min , whether we add  lactate or reduce ( use lactate.) Now we know by now, that we can increase lactate but have no problem to feel well. WHY  ? H + homeostasis.
How due you maintain a H + homeostasis ???
 YES exactly.
 So that's why we have to add the next system to the information ( Respiration ) and with it the direct information MOXY  and now we get a nicer picture on what is going on.
 Summary :
 We may have to ask us:
 Do we design a assessment protocol which will manipulate or dictated the physiological reaction and outcome ? 
or
Do we need an assessment protocol , where the physiological reactions design the assessment protocol ?

Stay tuned on this here as this is fundamental to understand , why 3 min tests and LBP as I did where great steps but have to be reviewed and revised.
I will use  many of the latest case studies sent to us from all over the world . Thanks so much for all contributors

Last key words to the  Alarmphase. 1. Functional reaction , structural integration





Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #11 
Okay good morning. Here the promised info on the above interesting discussion.
 You have a great study , where they where looking art the  ability to compare EtCO2  with EtaCO2 or in simple terms  direct  blood gas with indirect blood gas. ( pdf )
 Than a practical feedback from Chris himself on this info by looking at the test closer and looking the reaction of one of his test between TV and RF.
 pic one
 followed by an overview of a test printout, where you can search for the peaks of TV and look the  direct reaction  on FeO2.
 Interesting is in the last pic that VO2  does not  react at all to the  up and downs of FeO2..
  Why ???

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