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Stuart percival

Development Team Member
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Posts: 79
 #1 
Hi Guys
I am trying to find a new protocol for cyclists as an alternative (but not substitute)for 5-1-5 for cyclists.
5-1-5 I like but sometimes if I have multiple tests or someone who wants to pay less I need to reduce my time testing.
I use V02 equipment with this test (I will upload later) but wanted to discuss:
1. The usefulness of this test in terms of what we can understand about limiters/compensators
2. Possible improvements/variations others may have tried.

Protocol:
2 min rest/calibration
60 secs calibration- Right leg 12 0 clock
followed by 60 seconds left leg 12 0 clock
2 min ramp
50W start
30W increment
Moxy placement RRF,LRF,Deltoid
V02 equipment

Rather than a ramp test I decided for a step test to 'slow' the test down and allow for limiters and compensators to be hopefully exposed.
I look forward to the hot debate [smile]

Stuart percival

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 79
 #2 
[image]
Stuart percival

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 79
 #3 

[image]

Stuart percival

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 79
 #4 
[image]

Stuart percival

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 79
 #5 
V02 data to follow

 
Attached Files
xlsx DH_Deltoid.xlsx (295.50 KB, 4 views)
xlsx DH_LRF.xlsx (288.37 KB, 5 views)
xlsx DH_RRF.xlsx (332.48 KB, 4 views)

juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #6 
Stuart  great idea  and I look forward as well  for  some  additional feedbakcs.
 
Why ?
 When we started  out with physiological assessment ideas   30 +-   years ago , we went through all possible ideas  with integration of   VO2  , conconi  ideas  different step assessments already existing  like Bauke, MAX lass   and all possible  LT ideas. We did   from  wingate   options   30 seconds  all up  to 10 min steps test including  actual physiological reaction test.
 We  combined  Physio  flow  and  live feedbakcs  like SEMG  , NIRS , blood sampling  with a live steady flow  form blood to nearly  what  ever  was available.

 The  motivation we had  at that time  waas  :
 5-1-5 I like but sometimes if I have multiple tests or someone who wants to pay less I need to reduce my time testing


So  today  the idea is :

wants to pay less :  Sure   and I  still offer a conconi test as it iss fats  and short  and  simple to give a cook book.  If somebody  like s to pay less  for a  cook book  I never resist.  . Is it fun  for me  and  is it what I like to offer. 
 No  not at all
and I tell this  the  clients  same  with LT  I offer  or LBP  or VO2 max. I  explain  and they decide.
 result  . It is a business  with a poor   product  I sell, but if the customer likes it and   he is happy with it than in business this  is what counts.

I need to reduce my time testing.
That  for me is a  terrible  bad  answer  if  I give this  for myself. If  time  reduces  my   quality  and effort to  offer the  best I  can (  always  room to improve )  and as a  coach I  ask  my athletes  to invest   optimal time  change live  style  with food intake  and what  they  do  for sleeping pattern  and invest  sometimes  20 - 40 hours a week  to follow my training advice  and I  am not ready to  put as much time in  plus more  to offer  at least  my best ability  for the incredible time investment including money  they pat  , than  that is time  for me  to   get   into retirement. 
 No matter on the level of a client , whether it is a  84  year  old  gentlemen  or women  who like s to   invest  time and money  to  maintain or even improve  their  health  abilit  or a   cyclist  who like s to  create some personal best. If  time  is the reason to change an assessment to a  shorter  time knowing that  certain physiological reactions  have no chance  to   actually show  up  is  for me  a no  go  under  any circumstance  and that   is  what  we  offer here.
 If  to  you look from a business point  a great idea but how  about talking 220 - age  and  throw  the formula  out  fast easy  and  still can charge  money.  

Welcome  to a nice   intimate  dinner in Mc  Donald.
  No  that does not mean  there is  some options  perhaps  and that's  why I  love to  just stand on thee side line and learn  and see how  shorter  version  solve the physiological problems of  time lags in individual    situation  for different physiological systems.

What is  our  average time commitment  when we offer a   consulting  service.
 For a Pro individual atejlet it is  normally a  1 week  camp  where  the  whole time   we adjusts  and  try to find answer  to   reactions in daily  specific  workouts  and reactions.
 If  I like  to  create  cardiac  output   training  with  Stroke volume stimulation including right or left ventricular overload   , than I need individual  reaction times  on plasma  expansion  and more. If  I like to assess recovery  after  respiratory  overload  I have to  do this in real time  and so on.
 Now  I ca be relative  sure I, not  completely, that I know  what i do and   still need the  clients  brain to keep  feeding me  with feedbakcs  from workouts.  Now  with  clients  like cardiac   patients  or  COPD  patients or  other diseases  this is absolutely  crucial  as I   play otherwise  with their  heath

In sport  we  seem to not even  discuss this option, that we  may actually play  with  the health. It is a no go  to discuss this  despite  the fact  of a growing number  of  actual problem. Today we have  either people doing nothing or   the other once  do fat tom extreme. ( Cross fit  , ultradistance and so on. )

 Look at the  reaction in  sebo2009  which for me  was a  cardiac overload reaction from his  incredible  effort. I was trying to avoid  the  discussion but had  already a long answer ready   when we  look at his initial tHb  reaction  than   the  slowly recovery of his cardiac  respond.
 Here a  short part of  the  answer I had  prepared  but avoided  to discuss.

1. According to a study presented at the Canadian Cardiovascular Congress 2010 in Montreal, regular exercise reduces cardiovascular risk by a factor of two or three, but the extended vigorous exercise performed during a marathon raises your cardiac risk seven-fold!

2. In a 2011 study published in the Journal of Applied Physiology, researchers recruited a group of extremely fit older men, all members of the 100 Marathon club (having completed a minimum of 100 marathons). Half of the men showed heart muscle scarring as a result of their endurance running—specifically, the half who had trained the longest and hardest. If running marathons provided cardiovascular benefit, this group would have had the healthiest hearts!3

3. A 2011 rat study published in the journal Circulation was designed to mimic the strenuous daily exercise load of serious marathoners over the course of 10 years. All the rats had normal, healthy hearts at the outset of the study, but by the end, most of them had developed "diffuse scarring and some structural changes, similar to the changes seen in the human endurance athletes."4

4. A 2012 study in the European Heart Journal found that long-term endurance athletes suffer from diminished function of the right ventricle of the heart and increased cardiac enzymes (markers for heart injury) after endurance racing, which may activate platelet formation and clotting. Twelve percent of the athletes had detectable scar tissue on their heart muscle one week post-race.5

5. A 2010 study presented by the American College of Cardiology showed that endurance runners have more calcified plaque in their arteries (which also increases stroke and dementia risk) than those who are not endurance athletes.6

6. A 2011 German study revealed a very high incidence of carotid and peripheral atherosclerosis among male marathon runners.7

7. A 2006 study screened 60 non-elite participants of the 2004 and 2005 Boston Marathons, using echocardiography and serum biomarkers. Researchers found decreased right ventricular systolic function in the runners, caused by an increase in inflammation and a decrease in blood flow.8

8. Research by Dr. Arthur Siegel, director of Internal Medicine at Harvard's McLean Hospital, also found that long-distance running leads to high levels of inflammation that may trigger cardiac events.9

 Not negative but critical thoughts, why as a coach I have some obligation to understand  what i overload and how  to  create a positive  feedback  after  an overload rather than a long term problems. 

Summary.
 If  I like to run a business any shorter  test is much  smarter. Than I  simply have to sell it smart  and it works  and most people make progress anyway.

 If  I like to   understand my own training suggestion , than I often  have to invest  time    lots of time  for myself as I have non stop additional  questions  and often not  a great answer to  at least hope I am decently understanding my clients reactions.












juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #7 
Here  one  feedback   from a  coach  which is far ahead of the curve  due to outside  the BOX  approaches .
Per Lundstrome
 Time ??  money ??  no but a vision  to improve. If we like to move out of  the  common ideas we may have to invest some personal  time  and  often money.
 Swinco  in Zuerich is  on this   path as well. 
 no such thing  as  can I fast learn    ( Smile ) It is often  an internal fight with what we learned  and did  and what we may have to review  and that's  where we all including me  often fail.


 
Attached Files
pptx Project_Endurance_2.0_2014_summary_forum.pptx (6.63 MB, 27 views)

Stuart percival

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 79
 #8 
Hi juerg
Appreciate your time with the response but when you divided my question the context changed

I spend a huge amount of time coaching my athletes matching their comimitment they show me when I ask them to do all the things your list, nutrition, rest, stretch, sleep ........

I study in all my spare time to understand the physiology of exercise

I am soon to add more equipment to my lab to offer even more in depth data analysis

I already think our level of testing far surpasses anything anyone else does local to us

I'm not after a magic test and I'm not trying to be an expert overnight- certain situations do not allow the time it takes to provide a test with all my equipment and the best protocol possible

This test was provided free of charge so I could try something different
sebo2000

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 227
 #9 
 Look at the  reaction in  sebo2009  which for me  was a  cardiac overload reaction from his  incredible  effort. I was trying to avoid  the  discussion but had  already a long answer ready   when we  look at his initial tHb  reaction  than   the  slowly recovery of his cardiac  respond.
 Here a  short part of  the  answer I had  prepared  but avoided  to discuss.

Hi Juerg,

And I'm patiently waiting for your response thinking you are busy [smile] Please any critical response is more than appreciated from my side. The one thing I like and truly appreciate is your honest and straight out comments.

I was kinda expecting cardiac overloaded as well (low HR at the same loads), but my naive\uneducated perception about "improvements" are most likley misleading me[smile]

Please don't hesitate to respond.

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