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Roger

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 #1 
I have some questions from an exercise physiologist that is considering using Moxy.  I thought I would post them here to get some additional feedback.

1) Do the Moxy values correlate with SEMG in a group of muscles?

2) Can Moxy be used to predict the fatigue of a muscle?

Ruud_G

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 #2 
I can't say anything about 1, but wrt 2 I would ask what the exercise physiologist definition is of muscular fatigue. And if given during what state, during exercise, after exercise, etc.
juergfeldmann

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 #3 
I was in California  and we  woke red  with some great coaches  and athletes  at the lake casitas facility  (LA 1984  Olympic  site ) . An incredible driven group  with an unusual open  and out of the box thinking rowing coach  and  possibly that is why they have  fun enjoy  to  work  and  bring results.  So here just shot  to add to Ruuds  great point .
 
2) Can Moxy be used to predict the fatigue of a muscle?

 An interesting question  form an exercise physiologist isn't  it. We all know  after all this years , that we  have no clue  what the definition of fatigue  per see is.  Just because we see a  sever  drop in SmO2  or a sever drop in SEMG  activity  after a certain task  does not mean any thing other  as that we may deliver less than we utilize or we contract less  units  than we did  before .

 So  does MOXY predict fatigue  no  not at all MOXY is a NIRS device  who gives feedback on the SmO2 trend  and tHb trend.
 The rest is speculation  at its best when we  simply look moxy datas  alone without  overview of the full team.
 

Simple example . A  drop in SmO2  so that the  specif  muscle may  loose performance  could be a  sigh of  "fatigue " but  it  is not the muscle  in some cases, it is the  CG  and  it may create this reaction due to a fatigue  (  (  or  change  of  performance efficiency   and more of the respiratory system. so reaction of CO2    O2  diss curve shift to the left  SmO2  drop  performance loss. So no  reason to believe the muscle was fatigued  but the team  had to make a decision  on how to react.



1) Do the Moxy values correlate with SEMG in a group of muscles?  As well an interesting  question  form an exercise physiologist. What means  correlate.  Both  give us feedback on  activity . one over metabolic   and  mechanical changes    with SmO2  and tHb trend  the other over   recruitment of  motor units  and therefor as well on muscle activity. Do  they  support  each other  or  do they  contradict  each other yes and no.  Same as we have  with  SmO2  and lactate . They can  show a similar  outcome  or they can go  the opposite. 
 That's  why we  combine  so many options this  days to avoid  to   come to a conclusion  that they correlate  when in some cases  they simply  don't.  We use  since   a long time SEMG  and  portamon  and now  SEMG  and MOXY . In some cases  we use both as they may  contradict in some case we only use  one  or the other as we know the outcome of the other  when we  use one  as they go hand in hand.
. So  small thinking  option. Try to   create cases  whee :
  Lactate go up but SmO2  goes up as well..
 Lactate drops  but  SmO2  drops as well.

Than  SEMG  gos up  what may happen  with tHb   
now  SEMG goes  up  tHb goes up  an  than flat  and SmO2  steady drops ?  Now  you see where   we may have a  complementary  feedback and where we may have  a different outcome.
 Hope  that helps  to trigger  some  thoughts
DanieleM

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 #4 
Sometimes ago I posted the reference to a recent article where they made some correlations between NIRS and SEMG:
http://forum.moxymonitor.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1290756357&postcount=24&forum=382096

juergfeldmann

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 #5 
Interesting and we miss this in this study  Daniele showed the  reaction in tHb.
 I used a lot tHb and SEMG activity to see,whether recruitment pattern  and  contraction quality.
 So here some  home work. How  will  SEMG  show the  quality  of a  contraction.  Or  do we see perhaps more about the quality ( intensity  which  can influence blood flow and therefor metabolic options , when we look at tHb. Best is to have SEMG  and tHb  and now  I have a  connection between   %  of maximal  contraction activity  and influence on  blood flow  . Hope you can see how we use this to actually understand the  limitation for a certain weight during a workout.
 It is NOT the weight performance  who tells us  what the out come it  it is the physiological reaction the weight will  produce  so we know , whether we  have a " free  blood flow , a venous  or outflow restriction or a complete  blood flow restriction.
 This all will have a  different end result as the way the body has to deal with this problem will create a different adaptation. 
Practical example.
 I do a biceps  curl  with 50 kg.
 I may know that this  75 %  of  may 1 Max rep.
 That's it.
 I have no clue  what the physiological reaction is by just pushing this 50 kg. I add MOXY  to it  and perhaps  SEMG.
 Now I know   whether 75  %  creates in this  athlete a blood flow restriction and  what type  . Than I know  when I stop  how long it will take  for free or different flow and therefor can use the MOXY guide  for load  length (numbers of reps )  rest period  between the  next load  and  the  numbers of loads  I may like to  do  to achieve a specif  stimulation   for the biceps.
. The classical way is  5  sets  15  resp  1 min break.
 Why  and what is the  reasoning  behind this  program.
 How  do I know  why  athlete A  has a different end result  compared to athlete B despite an identical 5 sets 15  resp 1 min break load ?
Ruud_G

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 #6 
Maybe a bit if topic (wrt semg) but some reference about fatigue:
fitbyfred

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 #7 
Thx for posting the video. From a practical point of view, here's what we mostly find if coaching with 2 MOXY NIRS on dominant & non-dominant limbs: HIIT WORKOUT R & L VL.png   
Ruud_G

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 #8 
I am colourblind so correct me if I am wrong. Both SmO2 for L and R correlate quite strongly and the same holds for tHb
fitbyfred

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 #9 
When entire workout is viewed as an image the trending is similar.

The actual workout guidance was challenging due to the non-dominant side reactions, which varied significantly.
bicyclefitguru

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 #10 
I agree, Juerg.
I was asked in my recent webinar when I use sEMG for Bike Fitting.  I feel that relying on sEMG for fitting is a mistake, and apologize if my response seemed rude.
In my opinion, there are too many variables (asymmetry, history, age, objectives, injuries, center of gravity, etc.) for any 'bike-fitting' protocol to produce reliable outcomes.  
But the one place that I use sEMG regularly is to analyze the RMS and the visual "quality" of recuitment patterns (amplitude, duration, latency) relative to changes in bike fit and biofeedback.
I'm seeing a positive-correlation subjects between RMS and tHB, frequently accompanied by a negative-correlation between RMS and SmO2.
I wish the 'streaming'  tHB metric was scaled for better analysis.  



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Chris Balser
http://www.bicyclefitguru.com
juergfeldmann

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 #11 
Absolutely agree  and  bike guru  has one of the most  advanced  an best  SEMG  equipment  from BTS the Italian company  a jewel of a product in this field  from design  to  functionality .
 No I do not get payed  for this  PR   ( Smile )
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