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sebo2000

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 #1 

I did small experiment with compression socks. Moxy on Right VL and left Deltoid.

First I did easy riding and some breathing exercises.

Then I did 3x15min at the same power set on my kickr, hands on the bars same breathing everything the same, or as close as possible. I marked those sections 1,2,3 on pic below.

Only one of 3 intervals was done in compression socks, can you try to take a guess and tell which one? It is not by any means test, just fun game, I honestly was expecting a bit different results, I’m not going to say more not to get you on the wrong path.

Only 1,2 or 3 was done in compression socks take your pick, excel attached as well.




Compression.JPG 

 
Attached Files
xlsx Moxy_26_Jan_2017_Combined_moxy_compression_socks.xlsx (167.60 KB, 7 views)

ryinc

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 #2 
My guess is 2 [wink]
sebo2000

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 #3 
I'm not going to revile the answer just yet, lets wait day or two for more people to have fun, again this is not about right/wrong it's about learning about what we would expect too with Moxy, especially the new guys like myself. 


juergfeldmann

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 #4 
Seboo this is  fun and exactly  how we  move  forward.
 We did a few  years back some more serious assessments  here in Canada  and in Europe  as well as  Clint Friesen in Florida   with this  ideas on compression  clothes.
 We   than  had the luxury to combine  Portamon. ( different levels of  readings so muscle to more skin and MOXY  but as well  cardiac feedback  to see whether it could make a difference. In fact we did in Seattle  during a  MOXY  seminar  with Mary Ann a  live  feedback as one  of  the participants  was  from a  compression cloth company. We   even tried  the NIRS reaction through  toe  socks . Reason.   if you have a MOXY  under  the  socks  you add  the compression   not  jst in the muscles, but as well on the MOXY. So we looked  at that  as well so  under the socks  and  we had  white  socks  so than wee repeated the assessment by  fixing MOXY on top of the socks.
 So yes   wait a few  days  for potential more feedback.
 One hope . Readers  try t  not to guess  but try to argue based on  what we see why we stand for one   again no matter  right or  wrong. 

jschiltz

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 #5 
After reviewing the data I'm going with #1.

#1 does not show the shift from non priority to priority the way #2 and #3 does. The THB level in the priority muscle is already at the steady state level seen in those other efforts from the start.
CraigMahony

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 #6 
Some loud thinking.
The SmO2 in VL in repetition 1 seems to be the flattest and does not drop as much initially. In 2 and 3 it drops more, in 2 the most and for longer, then rises only to gradually desaturate slightly for the remainder of the repetition.
The THB in VL seems to be similar in all three with the exception that it does not rebound as much after repetition 3.
The SmO2 in Deltoid after its initial rise seems to drop slightly in 1, be flat in 2 and rises slightly in 3. There are large peaks and drops in 1 and 3 but not 2. Unsure what this signifies.
The THB in Deltoid is lower in 1 and gradually rises, is fairly flat in 2 and is erratitic in 3 but possibly rises.
What all this means in terms of compression socks I do not know. They are meant to assist in venous return. Given that the moxy is not on the calf how can we tell if this is so? More HHB should be shifted to the quadriceps, however, tHb seems to be the same in all three, although SmO2 drops the most and for longer in 2. Is the fact that tHb did not rebound as much after 3 significant?

No I am missing something here so will be interested to see the answer.
sebo2000

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 #7 
Somebody asked me what socks I used, this is not advertisement, I do not use them I got them long time ago and never really use them, because I never understood them, plus they are UCI illegal. (too high)

http://www.orthosleeve.com/shop/compression-leg-sleeves/

I have to admit Craig right now just open my eyes on how they work with 2 words "venous return" once everyone will give it a shoot I will explain to you my initial "thinking".

ryinc

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 #8 
Here is my motivation for interval 2. The Sm02 for the non-priority muscle oscillates in 1 and 3. I don't think this is a function of utlisation changing, i think it is a function of tHb oscillating (sm02 changes only because it is represented as a percentage of tHB). I think the oscillations in thB are micro vasodilation/vasoconstriction effects to help control overall BP. When the compression sock is on, the compression at the priority muscle is very marginally higher which serves as form of BP control - which means the level of oscillation/BP control in the non-priority muscle can reduce and produces a more stable trace.
bobbyjobling

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 #9 
N_1 because ThB of priority muscle doesn't dip as much when load starts or it is liner for the rest of the load Smo2 is liner too. But ryinc makes an interesting observation.
juergfeldmann

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 #10 
Seboo , hang back and enjoy  the discussion. I have a set of  graphs ready  to  show.
 My answer  for the moment . I am not sure  yet. I will show  why  I hesitate. 
 Now a few  points  to  compression cloth. 
 1. How much of the total muscle involved in an activity  they support  with compression. 
 So in this case it is a   knee sock so main muscle  who may or may not  be  compressed  is the  calf  muscle. Do we   think the compression on the  calf  will show up in the  quadriceps, where the  MOXY  was placed ?
What will the compression if  create  on  a  theoretical reaction  and  what  physiological system  would benefit  most of  it ?
 Based on some of the above  answers  we than  could go back and look at  local and systemic  reactions  and  are  they  clear enough to see a change. 

Now   below  an overlap  of the three loads  looking  just  at SmO2  reactions  followed  by the blood  flow /Volume reaction on tHb.

smo2  overlapp.jpg 

thb smo2  three loads.jpg 

juergfeldmann

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 #11 
Okay  lets  go back to this  fun section.
 1. Based on the overlap  of  the three loads  on SmO2  I would not be able  to make a decent physiological based  conclusion. As  you can see, we  could speculate but the  amplitude  of  the SmO2 variation is  far too small and  well with in the inaccuracy of  any NIRS  equipment.
MOXY or NIRS is  great but not that Great. No compression  has  a lot  to discuss . So in this case we had  2  socks  on  so   the above SmO2  are feedback  from   quadriceps. It may be  we would see a better reaction locally on the calf  but  it seems that the compression   reaction  are not sufficient enough to show up clearly in the quadriceps.
Compression   may  or suppose to influence  blood circulation. There is a reason  why we have  in the stores a limitation on mmHg  we can buy over the counter  compression socks.
 Why ? and  what is  the  mmHg  you can find  for travel compression socks  and  for athletic  compression wear.
 2. tHb  overlap . Same problem  as  ith  SmO2  so  no clear  safe  conclusion  in what set Sebo had  the socks  on.
  Now we know  he  had them on so  lets   go  with some more fun here. Look below  the full data collection. So  from the start to the  first red  line  Seebo  did some  biking
Than  first line he stopped  to get ready  for his  fun  experiment..

Look at SmO2  and tHb  at that break ??? What  do  they indicate ?
Than first load   with or without  socks. . Now look the  stop  of the load  after  the  first load. What is different. ( Hint  hectic ) muscle activity in the   upper leg. Followed  by the second load  with or  without  socks  and again a break  with the same hectic  and thB indication of   leg activity at rest. We  know  he had  in one load  the socks  on.  What  does the  rest  reactions could indicate and therefor hint   for us the load  he  had the socks  on. ?



whole workout.jpg

Above  explanation not very  scientific  more observation.

Now look below biased   closer views  on each  of the three loads.

bias 1.jpg 

I
f  we  would  "push( Compress)  surface  blood circulation we would have locally at least more blood in the working muscle  so more O2  so less  drop on SmO2   or HHb  or higher  O2Hb.
lets look the second  load  and compare   O2Hb levels  .

bias 2.jpg
 
lets look  third  load

bias 3.jpg


Y
ou are the judge. 
 Minimal  but possible indication ????

jschiltz

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 #12 
While I'm not really interested in compression socks, I do find this post interesting.  This morning on my way to work and I was thinking about it and had the following idea

- at first for me as a new person to this stuff i would think - "oh compression socks, the blood volume would be lower in the legs with those on, its squeezing the blood out"

- but then i had another thought of "well i'm essentially wearing partial leg warmers, which would raise my skin temp locally, which may create some sort of vasodialation, and actually increase blood volume"

(220 minus age X 0.75) + (220 minus age X 0.10) = threshold work but only if you are wearing compression socks....... ha ha ha

I'm very interested to see the outcome


ryinc

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 #13 
Juerg can you comment on differences in the non priority muscle.
juergfeldmann

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 #14 
Ryinc
  I  can give it a  try.
1. Legs
As   we can see   for  me not a clear  information  more a  speculation based on thB reaction in the 2  rest periods  and a  very small but not  sufficient indication of some higher  O2 Hb in the middle  load.
 Would I bet on this  hints. Not  at all 

Now lets look at the  non priority  delta muscle reaction.
2 Delta
smo2 overlab vl and elta  all three loads.jpg   Easy  to see the  pattern  of  VL  with  an incredible immediate  activation   and some  undershoot  now , indication of that  after the initial  start of the load  the  athlete  seems to  try to get   other muscles involved  and stabilizes  the   performance contribution nicely on a balanced  intensity.
Than  delta  SmO2  as a pretty   " normal " reaction of a non priority muscle with the overall   the three loads    trend of a  slightly increase in SmO2  indicating , that the  intensity was  in the balanced   zone  with a slightly  ability  to spare  O2 on here to  sent to  the delta muscle as  cardiac  nor  respiratory  nor local  O2  demand  seem to be in  danger. Really  purely  speculation  here, where we  would see an reaction  due to  the  pressure socks.

Now  again compression  ideas   have the goal  to change  blood  return from extremities.
So lets see  the tHb trends
thb  overlab vl and elta  all three loads.jpg 
light  brown is tHb  of non priority muscle
Same  tendency here  that over  the three loads  the tHb trend is  slightly increasing supporting the  idea, that there is no BP  danger and that  CO is  string  enough to allow   more blood in the upper body  due the  intensity in the lower balance  zone.

So if we push the question , we could argue  that the  third  load has more  blood  and a higher  SmO2 indicating a  better return  of  Blood  to the heart  and that's where the sock was on .
 So   here   the HR  would be  a nice additional help
Question  on HR.
 Do we have a simple HR  " drift  due to the same wattage in all three loads  than  that would as well indicate    and explain the higher  tHb  as  same  SV  and a higher HR  will increase  pressure  and  tHB  can increase if BP  is not in danger.
 
If  the third load is the sock load   and we have a better   blood return  so SV  would go  up  than we  could afford a  drop in HR  to maintain the same needed  CO. So lets look  to   hold  all together the  biased  version over all three loads.
As you can see the  increase in tHb is  due to increase in O2HB in the tested  area.
bias all three loads.jpg

ryinc

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 #15 
Juerg what could cause the more stable trace in interval2 for smo2 on non priority. Interval 1 and 3 are more jumpy?
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