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Andrew

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 #16 
I think the following details might have helped the previous conversation:
Was the interval itself a repetitive task (cycling, skating over given distance) or a single motion (single squat under high load)?
Was the athlete given a countdown prior to the start ("On your mark, get set, go!")?
Was this countdown changed in any way in the 2 and third sets?
We could see where the interval began, but not the duration of the interval itself. Was the interval set over a specific duration or distance?
I presume the interval was very short, and that the it lasted through to the end of the sudden drop in tHb, and then resulted in the overshoot we see in tHb. 
And then I would think there was a period of active recovery, leading to the drop in tHb until just prior to the next interval.

Now, without getting any further feedback, I will go out on a limb with some possible explanation of what I saw. However, I think that it is probably too early in the discussion for me to make any clear conclusions as to the cause. It would probably be safer to await the response to my first questions/enquiries before speaking further. But I have never been one to hold back my opinion...

I am able to see the elevated tHb in advance of the first and second interval, and wonder, if it WAS an interval like an all out short interval skate test, whether the athlete prepared for the sprint by lining up on the blue line with his muscles under tension, and awaited a start signal (similar to a short track speed skater). Or, whether he was skating around the outside of the rink, and had a coach counting down to give him an indication of the start of the interval, and began to slowly accelerate before the next interval began. I believe both of these scenarios could lead to what we saw in the first step, regardless of the breathing pattern he incorporated. If either of these were the case, perhaps, the reason we didn't see the same trend is because the athlete prepared for the third interval in a different manner than the previous ones. The same possible scenario cold take place on a bike, or on a track, where an athlete changes starting body position throughout the session itself.

Thanks for sharing this interesting case study Juerg. Could you please add some details to describe the intervals themselves so we can better picture what might have happened in this particular case?
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #17 


Thanks  for this nice feedback.
 Here some info's  based on what we see on the graph. It is  from the software  we always show in the forum  so green is SmO2  and brown is tHb.
 Left  axis you have SmO2  in %    and right you have a relative scale  as usual  for tHb. The bottom axis  is  rime in seconds  as usual  and  when using the MOXY app to download  it is  in 2 seconds info. So 30  as a number is  30 seconds.
 so  answer to  first question:
1.Was the interval itself a repetitive task (cycling, skating over given distance) or a single motion (single squat under high load)?

You can see it is a 30 second load  with a 21/2 min rest in between  when you look at the  time line  and you look at SmO2  reaction. So it is a typical acyclic test done on the ice  with ice hockey player.
So it was a repetitive task as you can see  easy   and it was time restricted   for 30 sec  as you can see  as well and it was a  fixed 21/2 rest period in between  doing nothing just waiting in standing by the  "bench".
 This is the statistical load   tested by the IHF ( international hockey federation  and  shows the load and rest time  for  a player  statistically during a game.

or a single motion (single squat under high load)? we showed a few times single loads  like squatting  with different loads  to   see, whether Rhomerts    vascular reaction he propagated in the late 1960  still has some merits. as this information is helpful to  think about possible  options in tHb reactions.

Was the athlete given a countdown prior to the start ("On your mark, get set, go!")?
Yes he knew it is  an important test  and he had a  ready  go  signal  for all three loads  always exactly the same way. The " stress" is like a race  as we always test 4  athletes  at the same time on the  ice  so they actually race  against each other but on 4  separate  courses  but equal courses.
The data's  are life  on the lap top and we as well have HR  life.

Was this countdown changed in any way in the 2 and third sets?

No all is always the same in all 3 sets.

We could see where the interval began, but not the duration of the interval itself. Was the interval set over a specific duration or distance?

Yes  marker was set on start  and   we  have on this no marker  for stop  . Time was  30 seconds so you can see marker  as we made the time grid  for 30 seconds.

And then I would think there was a period of active recovery, leading to the drop in tHb until just prior to the next interval.

No there was no active recovery just bang stop  and  wait   standing before going again  after a 21/2 min break. There are  certain reasons we explained on this forum  why we have no active recovery  but certain interventions  later, once we have the athletes  acyclic  loading and deloading profile. In ice hockey despite this  high all out load  the player always has a "passive " recovery due to the  game  and he is off the ice. Nevertheless we  do not have any  disadvantages   with load   and when adding some specific intervention we actually  can see improvement of  performance in athletes

The  section  with  ideas on  start or skate  should be answered  with the above information. 

Case study. This  ideas here  are somewhat advanced above and beyond case  study to   more  towards bigger study. We have   over 100 + test now  and will retests  next week again. We retest every 2 - 3 month and add than to different groups different ideas of  training  so we see, what  training actually will create what changes  to the athlete. This way  we learn to understand  why SmO2  is doing what we see and why tHb  is doing what we see.
 So we hope in about 2 years to have a few  hundred if not thousand  test  with different  interventions  to slowly hope we understand   what we have to  try to stimulate, once we know the weakness as well as the strength of an athlete. The key is  not just to assess but than understanding  and knowing  what interventions  are needed to change a limiter to an   equal team ember and how to eliminate the compensator  to kick in   to  help the limiter or how to train a system without loading an already  overloaded system.
 example : How  can I in ice hockey train enzymatic reactions  for H + buffering  without having to create a metabolic acidosis. Or  how can I train  a muscular utilization problem without pushing hard or how can I  create a  delivery improvement without dropping in utilization.
  The  plan for the moment with MOXY is  to learn how to integrate it sport specific  for assessments.  Than how to use it  during a workout  and finally how does the  information I gain on limiter and compensator  can be addressed by looking  at systemic  as well as local reactions.
 How  does the  Brain /CG  react in all l of this. There is a  major  research project going on since  more than a year in this direction with very great people  from all over the world  sponsored  by a private  company. So  MOXY is  a small  but important part in this investigation  and possible  the  public  will get some info earlier or later on the results  and the findings

 thanks for the great questions and I hope I could answer them as good as possible


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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #18 
Here  just to show you the interesting  situation  when we compare  2 athletes  same test.

 Pic 1  the  example we showed you with a tHb  drop prior  to start of the load
 Pic  2  an opposing     case, where tHb  drops  prior  to  load
. pic 3  real live    situation  of a first period    game  of  one athlete.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: anx_pre.png, Views: 13, Size: 105.85 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: thb_drop_before_start.jpg, Views: 22, Size: 62.22 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: thb_smo2_1_st_p_=_wu.jpg, Views: 13, Size: 99.10 KB 

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