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juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
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Posts: 1,501
 #1 
Motivated  by Ruuds  great short  and  perfect  summary   I use the option to do some loud thinking in his   direction  or at least I believe  that what  he is referring to.

closing the gap.jpg 



 The following example is a internal discussion we have  with Martin  from Prag  after he sent us a  great  scientifique  work on  climbing and recovery   options  for the grip  (  forearm pump ) problem.

Here the result  base don  a study using NIRS.

Active recovery of the finger flexors enhances intermittent handgrip performance in rock climbers

Jiri Balas M. Michailov, D  Giles, J Kodejska. M Panackova, S Fryer 

 

European Journal of Sport Science (Impact Factor: 1.55). 12/2015; DOI: 10.1080/17461391.2015.1119198

ABSTRACT

This study aimed to (1) evaluate the effect of hand shaking during recovery phases of intermittent testing on the time–force characteristics of performance and muscle oxygenation, and (2) assess inter-individual variability in the time to achieve the target force during intermittent testing in rock climbers. Twenty-two participants undertook three finger flexor endurance tests at 60% of their maximal voluntary contraction until failure. Performances of a sustained contraction and two intermittent contractions, each with different recovery strategies, were analysed by time–force parameters and near-infrared spectroscopy. Recovery with shaking of the forearm beside the body led to a significantly greater intermittent test time (↑22%,P< .05), force–time integral (↑28%,P< .05) and faster muscle re-oxygenation (↑32%,P< .05), when compared to the hand over hold condition. Further, the ratio of intermittent to continuous test time distinguished specific aerobic muscular adaptations among sport climbers (2.02), boulderers (1.74) and lower grade climbers (1.25). Lower grade climbers and boulderers produced shorter duration contractions due to the slower development of target force during the intermittent test, indicating worse kinaesthetic differentiation. Both the type of recovery and climbing discipline determined muscle re-oxygenation and intermittent performance in rock climbers.

Active recovery of the finger flexors enhances intermittent handgrip performance in rock climbers. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287506740_Active_recovery_of_the_finger_flexors_enhances_intermittent_handgrip_performance_in_rock_climbers [accessed Dec 23, 2015].

 
Now  I highlighted  something red and something green

Great study  clear  answer  as a  " cook book " on recovery ???

Now if you  got  a or will be educated  at that university , that is  what you will do as  a coach  and repeat as a student.
 Now  if you  got  or get educated  with the next group  look what you will sue  or teach as a coach.

Active recovery strategies and handgrip performance in trained vs. untrained climbers.

Green JG1, Stannard SR.

Author information

  • 1Institute of Food, Nutrition and Human Health, Massey University, Palmerston, New Zealand. j.green@massey.ac.nz

Abstract

Isometric contractions, such as occurring during rock climbing, occlude blood flow to the active musculature. The ability to maximize forearm blood flow between such contractions is a likely determinant of intermittent handgrip performance. This study aimed to test the hypothesis that intermittent isometric handgrip performance is improved by 2 common active recovery strategies suggested to increase muscle blood flow. On 6 separate occasions, 9 trained indoor rock climbers and 9 untrained participants undertook a fatiguing, intermittent, isometric handgrip exercise bout consisting of sets of 6 contractions (approximately 33% of maximal voluntary contraction [MVC] force), each 3-second long separated by a 1-second rest. Between sets, participants were allowed 9-second recovery performing passive rest, "shaking out" (vigorously shaking the hand), or grasping a handgrip vibration machine, each with or without forearm occlusion. Performance was assessed by pre- and post-exercise MVC trials and a 20-contraction post-exercise handgrip time trial (TT20). Trained climbers exhibited significantly greater handgrip MVC force and intermittent exercise capacity than untrained (p < 0.01). There was no effect of recovery strategy on any measure (p > 0.05). Trained climbers were more affected by occlusion than untrained in MVC (p < 0.05) and TT20 (p < 0.01). Shaking out and low-frequency vibration are unlikely to affect rock climbing performance. It is recommended that rock climbers and their coaches focus on optimizing body position rather than compromising body position to allow for shaking out

 Hmm can you see the dilemma. ???  Now  what  does this has  to do  with Ruuds  point.
 Really everything. Let's  go  and take  the scientifique tool  and look   climber by climber as a coach  and workout  by workout , what is effective  today   under  todays  meaning  NOW  at this climb  conditions.  This is a great practical application done a few years back  by  Mary Ann Kelly a  climber  and K2    concerer  on herself  a nutritional specialist ( RD )   Spiro Tiger specialist  and MOXY  certified  center  working out  of Chicago  and  California.

Here what a  physiological intensity   user  and coach will do.

climbing 1.jpg 

 You  take your  athlete  let him climb  show either  live  directly  on the athlete  the result as it happens he  feels it and he can see it  and  you as a  coach on the bottom can see it and  can live comment on what do  to.
Here a  pic  courtesy  of Mary Ann Kelly from the climbing centre Sender one in Santa Monica  California.

And below  the result  of the    individual assessment.

A smo2  tHb all.jpg 
Above  SmO2  and tHb trends  of  three  climbs  with  three recoveries in between   and three  different options to see, what works.

 It is your turn now  to make the interpretation. I like to add below the biased  version of the same three  loads  to it  for more feedback  for the   increasing amount of  coaches   we have on my email  discussion   form climbing. All thanks  to Mary Ann's pioneers  work in this field.

clim A O2Hb.jpg 
You can easy see the three different tHb reactions  and how  O2Hb  got influenced  due  to the  three  options. Which option at least on this  day  with  this  degree of  climbing difficulty  would   you suggest. Second  the recovery  time  can be used by having the alarm on the watch, if  she  climbs  on herself  for training purposes. How  often does she  climbs  , how long to recover  and  how  long the whole training  unit ?

Besides a  great  technique , great optimal strength and   endurance. ( Maintain o f H +   balance  and incredible great flexibility is a important  tool  for successful sport  climbing. See the incredible  hip  and abduction/ER  flexibility in this    climber ( Courtesy of  Mary Ann Kelly )
  
20130809_210642.jpg 

Now   an interesting   task is to use  MOXY and I often combine it with SEMG  to assess the effectiveness  of some  climbers  or gymnast  but as well  ordinary  patients   stretching exercises .
Be  ready if  you do these to review  many off the cook book exercise  and you may have to adjust some  to a very different standard.


I hope this  shows  why we use  just one MOXY in many cases  and how it is used  practically   and live  with immediate   corrections of  what we may have planned  and what is really f  going on.


 Climbing is in many  ways  for  many  people  certainly beginners a  HIIT.


nlsp

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 13
 #2 
Thank you Juerg for explaining both the micro and macro [smile]
To add to the discussion, of how we use the Moxy to simplify our training of HIIT, here is a summary of how I use to train and now.
As a Hockey trainer we used to, for example in the off-season training program, have all the athletes (top Junior to Pro players) perform 10 sets of 40 m with recovery of 2 min. In between sets (it could be any distance that made 'hockey sense' meaning it could relate to a hockey shift) the recovery could be 1 min. Or 5 min. Depending on where we were at in the training plan and what research I was basing my training program on. Then we progressed (not sure if right word...maybe experimented or seeking) to recover by heart rate; then heart rate and feeling; then lactate, heart rate and feeling; then heart rate, lactate, respiratory and feeling...until the Moxy (Actually the portamon...but then the Moxy and when required, meaning we found something that has stumped us [smile]
The first time Juerg showed the 'live screen' and when I skated or strided or squatted or...the green line went down and when I stopped the green line went up! And like Juerg stated in another post, that the next day I could see what the difference on the 'live screen' is today. Now, this is vey simplistic, yet it can also be very detailed, meaning we can see and train a lot more, but that is another post...back to simple.
So, I move the green line goes down and I stop and the line recovers up, so now we can play...for Hockey, we set a goal of maximum # of full-out intensity shifts, and we started assessing any player that wanted to 'play & learn and possibly achieve more max. Shifts.'
To keep it simple (a little overuse of the word), we found (and please find out for yourself...this is key!) out that each player is different, meaning load time, recovery time, # of sets and with trial and error we found the most efficient load time for each player (which can change day-to-day and because of the training program [smile], the most efficient recovery time and with these discoveries we were able to increase the max. # of shifts and here is the beauty of the technology - the success is dependant on being able to adjust and knowing why!!! To me it is playing and knowing (there seems to be always more to learn...especially with Juerg questioning [smile] or a better word is 'seeing' what is happening and be able to adjust on the fly and what does not work shows you or even teaches you more of what works...keeping in mind the goal of max. # of full-out intensity shift. Ok, did I say I was going to make it simple haha,
You move the green line goes down you stop it recovers and you design the training based on the sport and if you can do sport specific training, all the better for success in your sport as you increase the coordination and the fuel consumption (another post to elaborate), plus more. Did I say that there was a Brown line [smile]
Ok, before I get back to the gym to play (assess) with a Pro player, who just finished the playoffs...what will his Moxy Base Recovery. Base Performance, size of his tank, his load time, recovery, how is his absolute and relative strength, his mmv, lung capacity, etc. Look like? Lots of playing to do. The Moxy is a simple tool that I use, at first, using the Training Program I have been using and then exercise by exercise, I test it and see what really is happening and the goal I keep in mind is the efficiency of training as if we can achieve more doing less in the gym that allows the athlete more recovery time, because as Juerg says "the recovery is when they gain...we should be paid on recover programs" Hopefully this adds to the question of making training simple, because, I am having a blast figuring out what works and what does not and then being able to repeat this with all athletes and for the ones it does not work, we are able to adjust and succeed...or find new questions to be played with. I attached a picture of a Slide Board workout that is based on the Moxy green line for shift length, recovery time and Max. # of shifts. A few paragraphs above, I stated that finding out for yourself is key, because then you know through playing (experience) and it will then seem simple [smile] As I started by doing certain load time and recovery time and then Juerg questioned me, Why? And then I went with the green line. Time to go, but here is one last piece, once I started playing with the Moxy, I started assessing all my beliefs of how I trained, like recovery based on time or on heart rate or...

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Ruud_G

Development Team Member
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Posts: 279
 #3 
Thanks for sharing the ideas and application. This is exactly what I mean. This moves away the discussion from a more "defensive" one (nirs vs lt, nirs vs vo2max, etc) towards how you actually apply it. There are so many threads already which have this content.

I think also a big role is (or better said can be) here for the chartered centers since they see the day to day applications and caveats. But to be honest. I don't see a lot of them posting. This can be of course due to different reasons. Are they too busy? They are not willing to share? They believe they have a competitive advantage? They don' t know either? "Exposing with the risk of a mistake"?, Etc etc. While the value is really in application. Real live but it should be simple, afterwards when analysing it may become more complex since then there is time to analyse and to possibly readjust next time from what you have seen.

Anyway. Again thanks for sharing. I have to say that in the application for cycling I also used Moxy as a recovery indicator tool. At the same time questions do continu to be in my head. OK, my VL shows a nice recovery so I can start my load again. But hey. My Rectus Femoris goes slower in recovery. What does that mean? That I have to wait some longer? Or just use the VL as start / recovery indicator? And what does that mean for the overall body recovery? And if my goal is to be able to more rapidly recover after surges is this the way to go? And (important question I believe) does this all matter?, who not simply to a "finger counted" regime? I think valid questions but it Doesn't it result in the same performance enhancement outcome.

So yes. I use Moxy in this way, but when asking myself questions the answers cannot be simply given.
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #4 
Ruud ,  as so often you speak  form my heart

"I think also a big role is (or better said can be) here for the chartered centers since they see the day to day applications and caveats. But to be honest. I don't see a lot of them posting. This can be of course due to different reasons. Are they too busy? They are not willing to share? They believe they have a competitive advantage? They don' t know either? "Exposing with the risk of a mistake"?, Etc etc. While the value is really in application. Real live but it should be simple, afterwards when analyzing it may become more complex since then there is time to analyze and to possibly readjust next time from what you have seen. "

 I  get  daily many  emails.
 None  from any of your sport   speak  cycling  and in the USA  many of the  so called  MOXY  centers  are  cycling centers. Cycling USA  has  just accredited a Webinar section  on interpretation of MOXY  data.
. Is there a  traditional problem in this sport. Is the omerta  rule  not just there  are we  in the cycling community somewhat different. Is  MY business the  bets one  what is the best anyway.
 Do we have problems  from  some  sports  to  open up and see, that  some ideas  would be helpful  to integrate into a  fixed classical  thought. Are we  suddenly so  fixed on wattage . It is fascinating  and  I have some incredible  discussion  with   people, who are  religiously fixed on what  they do.   2. I like this section
 the discussion from a more "defensive" one (nirs vs lt, nirs vs vo2max,

It ios NOT NIRS  vs  LT  as they are  2  different ideas. Lactate  test  for lactate  and NIRS  assess O2  reactions.
My  question is , why  do we  actually discuss this. Business reason  if somebody   sells a lactate analyzer  blood less by  claiming it  can be done  with NIRS  or when somebody  claims  VO2   and NIRS  can find the same information. I hope  I can  get this discussion going in  the one  I started. All  assessments   LT  VO2   ans NIRS  can complement each other but not replace  each other. Each  have an information  and if  properly used , can help  to  finally  have a better understanding. This is what  all the  toys  we use suppose  to  do.  Finding a  simple tool  you and I can use on the  field in  our sport.


 I think there is a difference between  defending an idea  and open up to discuss an idea
. I hope  with many of the post  to be  able ( never successful )  to engage  " defenders  from one idea, whether it is NIRS  or what ever  to  have a open discussion.
. Not   a lot of success with  many of the classical believers  and If  I try on different forums  , I  often get some interesting wording back.  I  hope or believe, that we share incredible  free and open  all what  we worked on over the  last  15 plus years  in what we may be able to read out of  NIRS data. We have little  to zero feedback  form other groups  on how  they read them  and  if we  see some on other  blogs we  read  our own ideas in  some better   English.  I always hope and enjoy very critical feedback on here but they come  from  very  small dedicated  group  where  YOU  , Daniele    and  a  few more are involved.
 Will be interesting to   have a discussion  and make progress in the  case  I  used  to show  some  difference between  practical application ideas of  any NIRS  device versus  the great but less practical idea of  our  classical tools  , with the   delay of  data information.

The discussion is  for me  simply a fundamental  difference between  what we all do in the lab and what we may  have in the future  with the ongoing development of bio feedback options.
  When I started  this  discussion  much further back on a  forum called Fact- Canada  forum we had zero  positive feedback  as   most of  what we suggested  was simply out  of any though process. We  are coming along way now  15 years later, where we  at least get responses   where they try  to defend  something we do not attack but try to  discuss  on the  value  and the difference of  what we  can add to our  tools  set.
  So  as usual Ruud  great  feedback  and  please keep them coming.
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