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Registered: 1380484167 Posts: 1,501
Motivated by Ruuds great short and perfect summary I use the option to do some loud thinking in his direction or at least I believe that what he is referring to.
The following example is a internal discussion we have with Martin from Prag after he sent us a great scientifique work on climbing and recovery options for the grip ( forearm pump ) problem. Here the result base don a study using NIRS.
Active recovery of the finger flexors enhances intermittent handgrip performance in rock climbers
Jiri Balas M. Michailov, D Giles, J Kodejska. M Panackova, S Fryer
European Journal of Sport Science (Impact Factor: 1.55). 12/2015; DOI: 10.1080/17461391.2015.1119198 ABSTRACT
This study aimed to (1) evaluate the effect of hand shaking during recovery phases of intermittent testing on the time–force characteristics of performance and muscle oxygenation, and (2) assess inter-individual variability in the time to achieve the target force during intermittent testing in rock climbers. Twenty-two participants undertook three finger flexor
until failure. Performances of a sustained contraction and two intermittent contractions, each with different recovery strategies, were analysed by time–force parameters and near-infrared spectroscopy. endurance tests at 60% of their maximal voluntary contraction Recovery with shaking of the forearm beside the body led to a significantly greater intermittent test time (↑22%,P< .05), force–time integral (↑28%,P< .05) and faster muscle re-oxygenation (↑32%,P< .05), when compared to the hand over hold condition. Further, the ratio of intermittent to continuous test time distinguished specific aerobic muscular adaptations among sport climbers (2.02), boulderers (1.74) and lower grade climbers (1.25). Lower grade climbers and boulderers produced shorter duration contractions due to the slower development of target force during the intermittent test, indicating worse kinaesthetic differentiation. Both the type of recovery and climbing discipline determined muscle re-oxygenation and intermittent performance in rock climbers. Active recovery of the finger flexors enhances intermittent handgrip performance in rock climbers. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287506740_Active_recovery_of_the_finger_flexors_enhances_intermittent_handgrip_performance_in_rock_climbers [accessed Dec 23, 2015]. Now I highlighted something red and something green Great study clear answer as a " cook book " on recovery ??? Now if you got a or will be educated at that university , that is what you will do as a coach and repeat as a student. Now if you got or get educated with the next group look what you will sue or teach as a coach. Active recovery strategies and handgrip performance in trained vs. untrained climbers. Green JG 1, Stannard SR. Author information 1Institute of Food, Nutrition and Human Health, Massey University, Palmerston, New Zealand. firstname.lastname@example.org Abstract
Isometric contractions, such as occurring during rock climbing, occlude blood flow to the active musculature. The ability to maximize forearm blood flow between such contractions is a likely determinant of intermittent handgrip performance. This study aimed to test the hypothesis that intermittent isometric handgrip performance is improved by 2 common active recovery strategies suggested to increase muscle blood flow. On 6 separate occasions, 9 trained indoor rock climbers and 9 untrained participants undertook a fatiguing, intermittent, isometric handgrip exercise bout consisting of sets of 6 contractions
contraction [MVC] force), each 3-second long separated by a 1-second rest. Between sets, participants were allowed 9-second recovery performing passive rest, "shaking out" (vigorously shaking the hand), or grasping a handgrip vibration machine, each with or without forearm occlusion. Performance was assessed by pre- and post-exercise MVC trials and a 20-contraction post-exercise handgrip time trial (TT20). Trained climbers exhibited significantly greater handgrip MVC force and intermittent exercise capacity than untrained (p < 0.01). There was no effect of recovery strategy on any measure (p > 0.05). Trained climbers were more affected by occlusion than untrained in MVC (p < 0.05) and TT20 (p < 0.01). (approximately 33% of maximal voluntary Shaking out and low-frequency vibration are unlikely to affect rock climbing performance. It is recommended that rock climbers and their coaches focus on optimizing body position rather than compromising body position to allow for shaking out Hmm can you see the dilemma. ??? Now what does this has to do with Ruuds point. Really everything. Let's go and take the scientifique tool and look climber by climber as a coach and workout by workout , what is effective today under todays meaning NOW at this climb conditions. This is a great practical application done a few years back by Mary Ann Kelly a climber and K2 concerer on herself a nutritional specialist ( RD ) Spiro Tiger specialist and MOXY certified center working out of Chicago and California. Here what a physiological intensity user and coach will do. You take your athlete let him climb show either live directly on the athlete the result as it happens he feels it and he can see it and you as a coach on the bottom can see it and can live comment on what do to. Here a pic courtesy of Mary Ann Kelly from the climbing centre Sender one in Santa Monica California. And below the result of the individual assessment. Above SmO2 and tHb trends of three climbs with three recoveries in between and three different options to see, what works. It is your turn now to make the interpretation. I like to add below the biased version of the same three loads to it for more feedback for the increasing amount of coaches we have on my email discussion form climbing. All thanks to Mary Ann's pioneers work in this field. You can easy see the three different tHb reactions and how O2Hb got influenced due to the three options. Which option at least on this day with this degree of climbing difficulty would you suggest. Second the recovery time can be used by having the alarm on the watch, if she climbs on herself for training purposes. How often does she climbs , how long to recover and how long the whole training unit ? Besides a great technique , great optimal strength and endurance. ( Maintain o f H + balance and incredible great flexibility is a important tool for successful sport climbing. See the incredible hip and abduction/ER flexibility in this climber ( Courtesy of Mary Ann Kelly ) Now an interesting task is to use MOXY and I often combine it with SEMG to assess the effectiveness of some climbers or gymnast but as well ordinary patients stretching exercises . Be ready if you do these to review many off the cook book exercise and you may have to adjust some to a very different standard. I hope this shows why we use just one MOXY in many cases and how it is used practically and live with immediate corrections of what we may have planned and what is really f going on. Climbing is in many ways for many people certainly beginners a HIIT.
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Registered: 1354854860 Posts: 13
Thank you Juerg for explaining both the micro and macro
To add to the discussion, of how we use the Moxy to simplify our training of HIIT, here is a summary of how I use to train and now.
As a Hockey trainer we used to, for example in the off-season training program, have all the athletes (top Junior to Pro players) perform 10 sets of 40 m with recovery of 2 min. In between sets (it could be any distance that made 'hockey sense' meaning it could relate to a hockey shift) the recovery could be 1 min. Or 5 min. Depending on where we were at in the training plan and what research I was basing my training program on. Then we progressed (not sure if right word...maybe experimented or seeking) to recover by heart rate; then heart rate and feeling; then lactate, heart rate and feeling; then heart rate, lactate, respiratory and feeling...until the Moxy (Actually the portamon...but then the Moxy and when required, meaning we found something that has stumped us
The first time Juerg showed the 'live screen' and when I skated or strided or squatted or...the green line went down and when I stopped the green line went up! And like Juerg stated in another post, that the next day I could see what the difference on the 'live screen' is today. Now, this is vey simplistic, yet it can also be very detailed, meaning we can see and train a lot more, but that is another post...back to simple.
So, I move the green line goes down and I stop and the line recovers up, so now we can play...for Hockey, we set a goal of maximum # of full-out intensity shifts, and we started assessing any player that wanted to 'play & learn and possibly achieve more max. Shifts.'
To keep it simple (a little overuse of the word), we found (and please find out for yourself...this is key!) out that each player is different, meaning load time, recovery time, # of sets and with trial and error we found the most efficient load time for each player (which can change day-to-day and because of the training program , the most efficient recovery time and with these discoveries we were able to increase the max. # of shifts and here is the beauty of the technology - the success is dependant on being able to adjust and knowing why!!! To me it is playing and knowing (there seems to be always more to learn...especially with Juerg questioning or a better word is 'seeing' what is happening and be able to adjust on the fly and what does not work shows you or even teaches you more of what works...keeping in mind the goal of max. # of full-out intensity shift. Ok, did I say I was going to make it simple haha,
You move the green line goes down you stop it recovers and you design the training based on the sport and if you can do sport specific training, all the better for success in your sport as you increase the coordination and the fuel consumption (another post to elaborate), plus more. Did I say that there was a Brown line
Ok, before I get back to the gym to play (assess) with a Pro player, who just finished the playoffs...what will his Moxy Base Recovery. Base Performance, size of his tank, his load time, recovery, how is his absolute and relative strength, his mmv, lung capacity, etc. Look like? Lots of playing to do. The Moxy is a simple tool that I use, at first, using the Training Program I have been using and then exercise by exercise, I test it and see what really is happening and the goal I keep in mind is the efficiency of training as if we can achieve more doing less in the gym that allows the athlete more recovery time, because as Juerg says "the recovery is when they gain...we should be paid on recover programs" Hopefully this adds to the question of making training simple, because, I am having a blast figuring out what works and what does not and then being able to repeat this with all athletes and for the ones it does not work, we are able to adjust and succeed...or find new questions to be played with. I attached a picture of a Slide Board workout that is based on the Moxy green line for shift length, recovery time and Max. # of shifts. A few paragraphs above, I stated that finding out for yourself is key, because then you know through playing (experience) and it will then seem simple As I started by doing certain load time and recovery time and then Juerg questioned me, Why? And then I went with the green line. Time to go, but here is one last piece, once I started playing with the Moxy, I started assessing all my beliefs of how I trained, like recovery based on time or on heart rate or... Attached Images
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Registered: 1419284397 Posts: 279
Thanks for sharing the ideas and application. This is exactly what I mean. This moves away the discussion from a more "defensive" one (nirs vs lt, nirs vs vo2max, etc) towards how you actually apply it. There are so many threads already which have this content.
I think also a big role is (or better said can be) here for the chartered centers since they see the day to day applications and caveats. But to be honest. I don't see a lot of them posting. This can be of course due to different reasons. Are they too busy? They are not willing to share? They believe they have a competitive advantage? They don' t know either? "Exposing with the risk of a mistake"?, Etc etc. While the value is really in application. Real live but it should be simple, afterwards when analysing it may become more complex since then there is time to analyse and to possibly readjust next time from what you have seen.
Anyway. Again thanks for sharing. I have to say that in the application for cycling I also used Moxy as a recovery indicator tool. At the same time questions do continu to be in my head. OK, my VL shows a nice recovery so I can start my load again. But hey. My Rectus Femoris goes slower in recovery. What does that mean? That I have to wait some longer? Or just use the VL as start / recovery indicator? And what does that mean for the overall body recovery? And if my goal is to be able to more rapidly recover after surges is this the way to go? And (important question I believe) does this all matter?, who not simply to a "finger counted" regime? I think valid questions but it Doesn't it result in the same performance enhancement outcome.
So yes. I use Moxy in this way, but when asking myself questions the answers cannot be simply given.
Development Team Member
Registered: 1380484167 Posts: 1,501
Ruud , as so often you speak form my heart
"I think also a big role is (or better said can be) here for the chartered centers since they see the day to day applications and caveats. But to be honest. I think there is a difference between defending an idea and open up to discuss an idea I don't see a lot of them posting. This can be of course due to different reasons. Are they too busy? They are not willing to share? T hey believe they have a competitive advantage? They don' t know either? " Exposing with the risk of a mistake"?, Etc etc. While the value is really in application. Real live but it should be simple, afterwards when analyzing it may become more complex since then there is time to analyze and to possibly readjust next time from what you have seen. " I get daily many emails. None from any of your sport speak cycling and in the USA many of the so called MOXY centers are cycling centers. Cycling USA has just accredited a Webinar section on interpretation of MOXY data. . Is there a traditional problem in this sport. Is the omerta rule not just there are we in the cycling community somewhat different. Is MY business the bets one what is the best anyway. Do we have problems from some sports to open up and see, that some ideas would be helpful to integrate into a fixed classical thought. Are we suddenly so fixed on wattage . It is fascinating and I have some incredible discussion with people, who are religiously fixed on what they do. 2. I like this section the discussion from a more "defensive" one (nirs vs lt, nirs vs vo2max, It ios NOT NIRS vs LT as they are 2 different ideas. Lactate test for lactate and NIRS assess O2 reactions. My question is , why do we actually discuss this. Business reason if somebody sells a lactate analyzer blood less by claiming it can be done with NIRS or when somebody claims VO2 and NIRS can find the same information. I hope I can get this discussion going in the one I started. All assessments LT VO2 ans NIRS can complement each other but not replace each other. Each have an information and if properly used , can help to finally have a better understanding. This is what all the toys we use suppose to do. Finding a simple tool you and I can use on the field in our sport. . I hope with many of the post to be able ( never successful ) to engage " defenders from one idea, whether it is NIRS or what ever to have a open discussion. . Not a lot of success with many of the classical believers and If I try on different forums , I often get some interesting wording back. I hope or believe, that we share incredible free and open all what we worked on over the last 15 plus years in what we may be able to read out of NIRS data. We have little to zero feedback form other groups on how they read them and if we see some on other blogs we read our own ideas in some better English. I always hope and enjoy very critical feedback on here but they come from very small dedicated group where YOU , Daniele and a few more are involved. Will be interesting to have a discussion and make progress in the case I used to show some difference between practical application ideas of any NIRS device versus the great but less practical idea of our classical tools , with the delay of data information. The discussion is for me simply a fundamental difference between what we all do in the lab and what we may have in the future with the ongoing development of bio feedback options. When I started this discussion much further back on a forum called Fact- Canada forum we had zero positive feedback as most of what we suggested was simply out of any though process. We are coming along way now 15 years later, where we at least get responses where they try to defend something we do not attack but try to discuss on the value and the difference of what we can add to our tools set. So as usual Ruud great feedback and please keep them coming.