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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #1 
http://www.balancepointracing.com
 Is one of the most advanced  coaching organization in North America and they  allow us  to use  some of their  assessments  to  discuss open on here.
 So thanks  so much  for the  opportunity  and again   we show  our  take but in the mean  time we have Pros  out there with a  lot  of experience  with MOXY  so  what I write is    my  take  but   not always  the   right or    all included  take. So allow  me  to  simple to  loud thinking n this case here.
  What I  normally take is  just the csv  file and  no other feedback if  possible. This allows  me  to see, whether  we have    stuff to learn and where  we in fact  without  any  other info  can read out   sometimes   alone    from just the MOXY data.
 The risk is , that without  other simple bio marker  like HR  and RF  we may sometimes  miss the  compensator  or limiter. So I will always add   additional  options  in case  there are  question in that directions  and where we  would love to have RF  or HR  or  a  noninvolved  muscle as additional help.  So here  to start out  a  fast overview  with numbers , where I ask  myself  question's why we see this  trends.  So stay tuned  for later in the  dya . Time  for  work here
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5 1 5   4  march.jpg

Juerg Feldmann

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 #2 
Let's start  with 1  Green  area. I am not  sure  from the  graph, whether this  was the first step in the  5/1/5  From the time it looks like a 6 min  time  so   it could be  1 min calibration but  not a very stable situation. Different reasons why. But let's see what we see.
 SmO2  drops  as we  are  used to see as  an indication of a  low delivery  situation  form a  resting  start  so  O2 is used  from the " storage area". Now  you can compere  in any later  start  after 1 min rest  that this SmO2  drop is not at all steep , so  something  change  here  at the start the  delivery situation.
tHb  is  even more interesting. It  completely throws  the  cookbook  idea  of muscle contraction  erase tHb  immediately over  board.. In fact he  actually increase  tHb  as he starts  or seem to start  and as  such the muscle contraction creates immediately a vasodilatation.
 So  what   balances  tHb increase  and decrease.
It is the balance between muscle contraction  (  decrease in tHb )  and  CO ( cardiac out but  and vasodilatation   would increase tHb. The stronger   stimulus  would    win  .???
 So  we have to make a risky  conclusion or better speculation here.

 a) Stress  before a  " test "  so increase  adrenalin . This would show  up  as a relative  high HR  even before the start.
 And or    what we see often is a    immediately  very high HR  for the load  so  low load  low muscle contraction needed  but  unusual high HR  so higher CO  and  what we see is the opposite  we often  see.
 So having HR here  would be    nice  to see. Now   what can add to this initial picture  is  a  " stressed "  serious athlete he  may  breathe deep  as he  is calibrating  deep  and slow   and  is moving himself  a little bit into a right shift ???
 Hmm  great    data's  and I love it as  every case  has its interesting  options. Remember the Chef  and the  Mc Donald    owner. I like that we  are  all chefs    and  do what we  do here start  form a cook book baseline  but adding our own  small goodies  to it.  I hope I am not  totally off with this green  area. ??
Andrew

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 #3 
I love reading Juerg's great interpretation, and his willingness to suggest reasons for the physiologic information we see, without having any written description of what we were doing. He is correct in a number of his comments about the green area, and that the trends are not really expected....here is what was actually happening...

We were using a TACX Flow trainer. So the athlete had to spin up to 200 watts to calibrate the unit. I tried to do it for him, but his seat was simply too high, and my legs are simply too short, so I had to ask him to calibrate. We did this before putting on the moxy. No warm up. No pedaling before the calibration. Just spin to 200 watts, and let it spin down. Then we waited one minute. Then we turned on the moxy, and sat on the bike for 6 minutes. leg at 6 o'clock position. We saw the THb trend rising through the 6 minutes, and assumed it was pooling due to position of the leg. SmO2 fluctuation I can not really explain. 

We started the 5-1-5 pattern at 6 minutes, with wattage steps of 100/100/150/150/200/200/250/250, at 300 he only completed 3 minutes, and after 1 minute rest, tried again, and completed 1 more minute. We rested one more minute, and then stopped the Moxy.

Referring back to another thread, I can see that after the failure at 300 watts, there are trends that may point to an inability to completely relax the muscles, with a dropping THb trend during recovery. But I really look forward to the discussion on points 2-5 that Juerg is laying out for us.
Juerg Feldmann

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 #4 
Andrew  thanks  for this great  feedback information. By the way , that's  what i call positive  teaching. .
 In my words  my interpretation of the green  zone  was  very  very wrong.

 tHb is even more interesting. It completely throws the cookbook idea of muscle contraction erase tHb immediately over board.. In fact he actually increase tHb as he starts or seem to start and as such the muscle contraction creates immediately a vasodilatation.
So what balances tHb increase and decrease.
It is the balance between muscle contraction ( decrease in tHb ) and CO ( cardiac out but and vasodilatation would increase tHb. The stronger stimulus would win .???
So we have to make a risky conclusion or better speculation here.

 So  what do we  learn  from  this. Here once more the discussed green area.


5 1 5   4  march.jpg 

 1.  To make  an interpretation  based on SmO2  and tHb alone  can give  some  interesting  options, which as we see in my case  where  not  true.

 How  could I have avoided  this  ideas  or readings?

2. We  assume, that an increase in tHb  can be  an indication of  increased  CO   or  as a simple  bio marker  and increase in SV
3.  A  drop in SmO2  we use  as  an indication of  more utilization  than delivery ? Now  we have  both here.
  What we miss is the  often seen  drop in tHb  due  to muscle contraction. In this case  we  really  did no had  any muscle contraction  for a compression outflow.
. Nevertheless  we have a drop in SmO2 so  somehow  we  either used  O2  or  but unlikely  we  got a lot of blood in HHb  as tHb  was increasing.
 Is  that possible ?
-Theoretically yes  as  some of the blood coming in, bypassing the lungs.
( Septum defect in kids or not closed ductus Botally)
- Extreme  EIAH  so   extreme  shift of the O2  diss curve  to the right  ( Respiratory  acidosis extreme  pH  situation .
 Less extremes  and Andrew  gave a  hint.
 6 Min resting position on the bike may have  created  a  venous occlusion trend  due to the position.

Check    as  a game  6  and  12  o clock position if you are a  cyclist  and see, how  much you individually react    with  thB    and therefor  as well SmO2.
 If you do a running 5/1/5  look  carefully  on the reaction, when you jump  of.
- eccentric load  on landing leg. Delta  reaction   when reaching  out ( abduction to hang on the  side  rail.
 Here  an example of a  assessment   by Mary Ann Kelly  from JT  California  SmO2  example of  L  and r  leg  and  delta  pars  acromialis at the preparation  for the  1 min rest  so jump of the treadmill.

smo2  all 3.jpg 
and below  the  reaction of the delta  looking  at the tHb
thb all 3  end   load.jpg 


So  how  can we  " avoid"  of  improve a better  interpretation.
 We  need  additional bio markers.
 In our  case we discuss here  HR could be one.
 So      as the first 6 mi where  calibration 6  min  by  just sitting there, The Hr  would be relative  stable.
 In my explanation the HR  would have  gone  up. So HR  would be one option  and  an nice  one to add  to interpretation  and avoid  wrong conclusion  or  better less  wrong  conclusion.
 - Another  one in this case would be a MOXY  on a  non involved muscle like the Delta muscle.
  This   data  would show no  actual  changes as well  and if  my  idea  of  already a first load  would have been   right ,we would  have seen  as well an increase in tHb  and SmO2  in the non-involved  muscle, or  like in the real case here  no change  as  nothing created  an increase in CO.
 Hope this  makes  sense.   Now we  can move on to the  next  point s  2 - 5

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #5 
Now  juts short  to keep you coming  back.
 based on the   feedback  we  now know , that the   first 6 min was a  " calibration with an interesting reaction.
 So here I added  an additional line   to our    data.  You can see  why  and what  questions it will asks  for. 5 1 5   4  march.jpg

Andrew

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 #6 
So, if we are discussing data related to the dashed line representing point #2, it has been drawn horizontal from the end of pre-test "calibration" rest phase. But, Juerg has also added a solid brown line that is horizontal to the "baseline" seen after the first minute of rest on the bike.

We can see the start of the first step at t=360 (100W), and the rapid drop in tHb, as expected with the initial contractions, which squeezes the pooled blood from the quadriceps muscle. However, during the subsequent recovery minute, there is a return above "baseline", but not to the level of the dashed line.

This recovery trend continues through the first 6 steps (though it looks like there should be some expected discussion about step #2 (still 100w) where there are some different trends).

It is only in steps 7-10, after higher intensity work that the recovery trend in tHb reaches again the dashed line. This is after significant effort, and the question from me is whether; a) the extremely high HR, and poor cardiac recovery is leading to increased blood flow to the area,
or
b) there is peripheral changes occurring that reacts to allow hyperemea

Interestingly enough this trend of super compensation reverses in the final two steps after "failure" to complete the final steps at a set wattage. And this was discussed previously as possible continued muscular contraction after muscular overload.

Still guessing on current limiter for this athlete, and looking forward to discussions on points 3-5.


Juerg Feldmann

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 #7 
Yes  dotted brown line  is the level  we  reached  after the  6 min  doing nothing. But as we argued  this  is above b resting baseline  and may indicate  a  venous occlusion trend.
 It  at least indicates  that the base line level can be overreached    and therefor  we have a  higher blood  flow  due to increase i  capillary bed in the tested  area.We  as well see towards  higher intensity  a  good  overreach of tHb  compared to baseline indicating more blood flow   now in the tested  are  due to increase in capillary bed.  We need a high vascularisation to  ever see a high mitochondria density 9 Schoen et all )    so   it looks here we  have a good capillary   bed  and   therefor we  should see  a big range in SmO2  reaction  so lot's    mitochondria     so  often high SmO2  values if load   and      drop down  can be    far   if  we need  to use  O2  as  we may have a delivery limitation.
  First  to 3  There seems that this step  was longer than the rest  and there  had  to be some  interaction during the step as we see a  drop in tHb and SmO2  first , than a  " recovery of tHb   and   another drop  which can indicate, that he either  reduce  pedal load or stop a short moment. If  stop SmO2  would have a bigger  amplitude there as well but it has not indicating some thing change  in  load  for a short  moment ????  I do not  now what. Would have to see HR   as a  small help as well.  Now  4  and  4.  .
 4. tHb trend.   A very interesting   reaction of a sudden increase in tHB    after a  relative low " recovery tHb   for a few  steps.
. What does tHb  can indicate in the recovery situation.
 Well we get  for sure  rid  ( or hope to get rid  of  muscle tension compression as we stop  biking.) This would give the  delivery system a chance  to  load up  with blood as there is now  no   compression  or  at least much less.
. We know  he  can reload  very high on tHB  as we  see    at the tHb levels  for sure  at the end.
. So question.
 Does he  simply does not need a high CO  for this  loads    and therefor  just has not a  high CO pressure ?

Now  watch what happens  with SmO2  just before the first high tHb recovery.
 He  clearly demand s a lot more O2    so SmO2  drops  as he seems not  being able to deliver  the new  or needed demand.
 This  creates a stimulation as a  stress  reaction . The drop in SmO2   stimulates  a  shot    signal of a relative  hypoxia. ( More O2  used  than delivered.) we  as well have a  drop in tHb    to a lower level  than  before.
 So we  have a  relative ischemia  and a relative  hypoxia    . Now read than below but this would  stimulate a  higher CO  and some other reactions.
 So if  he  could response e with all of that he  would be able to stop the drop in SmO2    as he now  can deliver gain, but he  does not  at all. He  keeps  dropping fast as a sign of a good   compensation    from good utilization but a  sign of a limitation of  delivery.
 We  ruled out  with thB  the capillarsiation as it is    much higher than  at baseline.
 We  can rule out respiration as he  has a good thB recovery  and has a good SmO2  trend as  well.
 So  leaves us  with   cardiac  question.
 Now in the first moment  it looks he delivers  well  ar rest  . So no  muslel contraction  he   does not need  that much of a  CO.  But a  vasodilatation could help him  as well.  Hypoxia  creates a systemic  vasodilatation , so   easier  to load  up  . If he  has a  low STtoke volume  he  has  to increase drammatically  HR  or mainly will work over HR.  without load   high HR  and   vasoldilatation are good enough to create a high  tHB  at rest, but it is not good enough to   maintain a decent  counter balance  during load  so tHb  will drop. less  O2  delvery  so  SmO2  will keep dropping.
  It  looks to me  this perosn has a limitation in Stroke volume.
 

Heart

The consequences of acute hypoxia are an increase in heart rate (both at rest and on exercise), myocardial contractility, and cardiac output  Interactions occur between the direct effects of hypoxia on blood vessels and the chemoreceptor-mediated responses in the systemic and pulmonary circulation.

Figure 1. Effects of hypoxia on systemic and pulmonary circulation.

 

Unraveling the underlying mechanisms of the hypoxic vasodilatation of systemic arterioles is an active area of research. Several mechanisms appear to regulate local oxygen delivery according to the needs of the tissues2,3; for instance, the release of ATP from red blood cells and the generation of NO by various ways appear to regulate local oxygen delivery according to the needs of the tissue.


 Now  last   to see how   good the idea of  involved  and noninvolved theorie  works   next  time get a noninvolved muscle in and see, whether we have a drop inSmO2  and   perhaps even tHb  at the same  time or   just arround  where we  have now the dop as a sign of a   delivery limitation  from the cardiac system  as he now   needs to get help  from noninvolved systems. ????


Andrew

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 #8 
wow...thank you so much for the great explanation.
I came to the same conclusion, but not in such a fine and detailed way. More simply, he had a VERY rapid increase in HR above what I would expect, even at the low wattages. With the new Peripedal software we are just starting up this week, we will hopefully be able to add HR data to our future submissions.

Thank you Juerg.

One additional question...
Any advice on how to use Moxy to help direct SV workouts?
I remember playing with different ideas when we had access to Physioflow, but wondering if your experience has helped guide some direction with Moxy, Resp and HR as only biomarkers available?
Ruud_G

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 #9 
Good question Andrew wrt strome volume stimulating workouts. I have the same question [smile]
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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 #10 
Ha ha  you guys  are  cute. 
 The majority  of big  wiggs  out there not  even know yet that MOXY is  existing  and you guys are  already  a generation ahead  and push  to go even further . I like that.
 Not sure  yet  , whether I will come up  with  some   directions  but yes    start thinking a little bit  turn  the head  to the right or left  , what  ever brain side you think   is  stronger  the analytic  one or the more  artistic  one. Yes    MOXY    can be used  for  SV    feedback on stimulation's.. The key is  to  get trough  the  basics  what    can influence  SV  and than  go  from there, who  actually  can influence this particulars  situations.
  One  other way  is to increase  the blood flow in the brain over some other manipulations . How  . here a  small hint.
brain-oxygen-effects-hypocapnia-hyperventilation.jpg  

 Smile
  here  an initial direction   why    we  can use  MOXY  as a  trend information  for  cardiac  specific  training.  Here some baseline  info  to  read  and to start.

Regulation of Stroke Volume

Ventricular stroke volume (SV) is the difference between the ventricular end-diastolic volume (EDV) and the end-systolic volume (ESV). The EDV is the filled volume of the ventricle prior to contraction and the ESV is the residual volume of blood remaining in the ventricle after ejection. In a typical heart, the EDV is about 120 ml of blood and the ESV about 50 ml of blood. The difference in these two volumes, 70 ml, represents the SV. Therefore, any factor that alters either the EDV or the ESV will change SV.

SV = EDV - ESV

For example, an increase in EDV increases SV, whereas an increase in ESV decreases SV.

There are three primary mechanisms that regulate EDV and ESV, and therefore SV.

Preload

 

Changes in preload affect the SV through the Frank-Starling mechanism. Briefly, an increase in venous return to the heart increases the filled volume (EDV) of the ventricle, which stretches the muscle fibers thereby increasing their preload. This leads to an increase in the force of ventricular contraction and enables the heart to eject the additional blood that was returned to it. Therefore, an increase in EDV results in an increase in SV. Conversely, a decrease in venous return and EDV leads to a decrease in SV by this mechanism.

Afterload

Afterload is related to the pressure that the ventricle must generate in order to eject blood into the aorta. Changes in afterload affect the ability of the ventricle to eject blood and thereby alter ESV and SV. For example, an increase in afterload (e.g., increased aortic pressure) decreases SV, and causes ESV to increase. Conversely, a decrease in afterload augments SV and decreases ESV.  It is important to note, however, that the SV in a normal, non-diseased ventricle is not strongly influenced by afterload. In contrast, the SV of hearts that are failing are very sensitive to changes in afterload.

Inotropy

Changes in ventricular inotropy (contractility) alter the rate of ventricular pressure development, thereby affecting ESV and SV. For example, an increase in inotropy (e.g., produced by sympathetic activation of the heart) increases SV and decreases ESV. Conversely, a decrease in inotropy (e.g., heart failure) reduces SV and increases ESV.

It is important to note that the effects of changes in EDV and ESV on SV are not independent.  For example, an increase in ESV usually results in a compensatory increase in EDV.  Furthermore, if SV is increased by increasing EDV, this can lead to a small increase in ESV because of the influence of increased afterload on ESV caused by an increase in aortic pressure.  Therefore, while the primary effect of a change in preload, afterload or inotropy may be on either EDV or ESV, secondary changes can occur that can partially compensate for the initial change in SV. 

 


Andrew

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 #11 
Ok, nice review of SV mechanics. This is something we deal with every day in the operating room, ICU, and ER, but in those circumstances, we most often cheat by using drugs to affect preload and after load [smile] 

Here would be my guess at how to maximize preload and minimize after load, in an attempt to train for an increase in SV....I am happy to hear from anyone who thinks this is the wrong way to go, as it really isn't fair to ask Juerg to give us ALL the answers [smile]

Increase in preload could be provided by increasing venous return through exercises that rely on steady state muscle contractions under relative high load (but careful NOT to produce venous occlusion, which of course would lead to a drop in venous return). The three exercises I am considering for my athlete are slow cadence cycling, snow shoeing and hiking (great for those living up here in the Canadian mountains).

Decrease in after load might be achieved by allowing for a hypercapneic situation, which could possibly be assisted with Spiro-Tiger or other respiratory modifications, and monitored with capnometer.

These ideas would put Moxy to good use, as we should be able to see tHb trend increasing in the periphery due to systemic vasodilation, as long as the muscular contractions are not done so forcefully to overcome the goal to drop after load. We would also aim for relatively moderate HR, so as not to stimulate a high heart RATE response. Having access to physioflow would be a nice confirmation, which we don't have access to. The problem being, we do not know whether this athlete will best be stimulated for higher SV based on low, middle or high HR.

We will do some trials this week-end to see if we can achieve some of these goals with our athlete under question. I look forward to hearing from other readers who are interested in these ideas.
fitbyfred

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 #12 
Hi, for controlled version of Andrew's exercise ideas, I like the stationary bike AND an older type stairmaster unit as a good way to go, esp. if wanting to monitor live on Peripedal and incorporate the SpiroTiger SMART on same monitor to add perfect control of inhale/exhale ratio.
Juerg Feldmann

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 #13 
Discussion in progress. I like to add some   great  data  to  this discussion form the same group.
  I start  with the most basic  idea on how  MOXY  can be used , so it is   similar  to a  formula  where we search  for a MAX HR  or a  FTP  HR  or a VO2 max HR. . The difference here is, that we not  search for any max  value  but we search  for physiological changes  in delivery  of  O2  and utilization of  O2.
 This than give  you a  Zoning " which is NOT based on one value  but rather is individual for  O2 trends.
 The advantage as well is, that the  physiological reaction   we all will  have after  a  hard  workout the day  before  or a    brutal  day in the office  can be taken into account as you workout  , as you will adjust the zoning  +-  by using  HR  and  MOXY  to the current physiological ability of your body  to deliver  or utilize  O2.
 So here   2 cases  where    do a basic  Zoning   from their  TIP.
 Than I follow  a  open thinking   discussion as usual  as I have limited  info. ( Not  true   I could have most likely more info  but I normally just take the csv  file  and I know the   sport they did in this case  and I assume  that they did a  5/1/5   and MOXY  was most likely on the vastus  lateralis.)

Case Q:
smo2  plus  zoning  and  diss  lines.jpg  Above  the  zoning  with some questions 
1. The start SmO2 of 80 - 90 is  possible but  seems very high in most cases. This  could  perhaps indicate, that he did  some more intense   acidity a few minutes before including some  perhaps  higher intensities  as the start SmO2  really looks similar  like the SmO2  peaks in the  1 min rest ? 
Option:
 If  you like to get a Kind of a baseline SmO2  and tHb  information in , like you  may collect RH  or HRV  or resting Respiratory  frequency information, than it could make sense  to really mark well  the positioning  of the MOXY  and do this baseline  a  few  times really  at rest.

2.  It looks to me that we have  clear  8  loads  so if it was a TIP  we have  4  steps   with each a  repeated load.  Than I have  problems  and I made a  circle  and a ? It looks  a kind  of 2  more    loads with a  similar time   length  followed by 2  more  very short loads The load  after the FEI  seems  to be  easier followed by a super  easy load and than two harder load, where the first hard  was longer  and the second  as you can see shorter.
 So  I am not sure , whether after  the FEI  i put in  something went wrong  and they interrupted  and than  went back to a  load  and followed their  normal increase or not.

Options:
 So   as soon you are more used  and advanced  you can , once you see the  potential limiter   immediately challenge  your open questions  and see , whether you can   create  an answer.9 More later as we  try to stay  on the basic here  first.


3. Now  careful as this is a basic  info  just on SmO2. So  we can see :
 a)  At the start  if he started out  from more or less rest, so low HR  so low CO    and so on Low RF  than we create   in the first load a  forced  upon delivery  problem, as we have a lag time  for respiration and  cardiac system to kick in. So this opens  us the  opportunity to see how nicely he  actually can utilize  as he  has no  optimal delivery.  NOW  with HR  we  would have less speculation how  fast and how   good he reacts  at least over the HR  section of  CO 
b) the next step , where we  would create   IF  , again a delivery  limitation    would be  towards the end of a TIP as we  may have a limitation in delivery  and or in utilization.
 Now  what we see is  that , IF this was the last   loads  he drops SmO2  similar  down  to as we have  at the start, but what we know  here is, that he  for sure   must have a higher HR  and  a higher RF   ( or better  higher CO  and VE ) so for sure a much  higher delivery. True  as well a much higher demand. nevertheless he   does not  drop more than  at the start  with SmO2 so he  seems not  to be able to compensate  with a better utilization.
 This could give  an initial indication of a Utilization limitation.
 to utilize better we need  more  mitochondria  density . To have more mitochondria density we  need  a  great vasulcarisation.  .
3. An interesting reaction   is that in the one minute recovery he  seems to have some   problems  to reload  SmO2  back to  where he  was   in medium intensity loads. ?
 The is opens  2  main question we can ask in a base interpretation  when using only SmO2.
 a)  O2  disscurve shift to the right  and in the one  minute  he can not get rid  of CO2  properly  so problem with loading  ( EIAH) . If that would be the case  he would in the next load  be relative fast again hypercapnic  and   this would  actually help him to  utilize  O2 better so  we  could expect a lower SmO2  as he would utilize better just  has a  problem to  reload  and or   get rid  of CO2.
b)  an other reason why SmO2  doe snot recover  could be, that he simply  can not  deliver  the O2  to the  resting leg muscles  as   the delivery vital systems  may not allow him to do that.
 So  they  would create a vasoconstriction  or they    stay on a very high activity  them self  as they  had to  jump in   for compensation or  are  limiters  so  the O2   needed  for the  vital systems ,  is now  not  delivered  to the   loco motor  system.
.
 This leaves  us  with this 2  open
questions.
Option:
 In a base   info  when using just SmO2    try to get HR  as well as this will give you some indication how  he  may recover  HR in the one minute rest  and where he may loose  the  " plateau "of HR  at what  steps, so we know , whether he  tries  to compensate  with and increase in HR over the step duration or  not.
Or  we  go to an advanced  use of MOXY  and integrate the trend information's of  tHb  as an indicator  of blood flow  to it. This than will answer some   questions like the  one or the vasoconstriction   towards the end , where it is  either a delivery limitation ( vasoconstriction or a utilization limitation
.)

Now  wait.
 What was the discussion in many cases.
 
ZONING:
 So  if we  forget all the above discussion and go back to the  picture  we delivered  a  nice individual ZONING. 

 Take  220  -  age and you have a zoning
Take  any other   system  and you have a  zoning.
Here now you have as well a  zoning as you always like to have  but each step  was found individually. You now  can use HR  or  performance as you always  do   and   use all what  we always  do  as a training idea.

Moves us  back to a  discussion which is  stalled  .
 Meaning full use  of  Training tools  and equipment's .

So   I guessbut  many readers  do not like to  just  find a " zoning"  hmmm, why  did we accepted thisi over all this years   just a  zoning, pay 250 + $  for a VO2  max  test  for  bragging right s  and than got  a calculated  zoning.
 Zoning  speculated upon  a non existing lactate curve ??? ( Smile ). From that point the 220 -  age  was not a bad idea  as it is free  and the endresult is the same, you get your zoning .

  But  agiain as I guess we  like to  see more. So stay tuned   as we  move  to the next step in this  Q  case    and  one more will follow , a PW  case.
  Here  just the zoning  of PW,but  what do we do  with Zonings. Do we  know  what the  limitation or  a possible compensation is ?

smo2  all plus  commments.jpg 
 
Above the zoning based n SmO2  alone. You can see    different  circles  where I will aks different questions as well some overlap of  " zoning "

Now below   just a short preview.   Q  and PW  and AS  and  all have  very different  physiogical reactions. Does  a zoning really makes  sense. Even  a harder  question. Does  Periodization based on  days  and  weeks  and month makes  sense ?
Below  three athletes  form the same  group .  Thre  great  challanges  .  No zoning  but  we look further .

all three athelets  thb smo2.jpg 


Stay tuned.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #14 
Okay here a short  side track but it will come up in the discussion of the above three tests.
. Look at  the tHb in all three assessments . They have all the same filtered rate  but ????
 Now  I was not  at all keen  to bring this up on this  forum but  it  just will pop up. Another   " throw  " away of some classical habits.
 When I  to MOXY assessments in my small community I   do not use  vastus  lateralise
 Why do we use tis  spot. Perhaps  because  many studies  are done this  way.
 For  cycling    with my patients, which are THR  and TKR  and  ACL  and  hemy pl. patients  I  fix  MOXY  either on the rectus femoris  or  on  the hamstrings  biceps femoris. I like to assess not a   single le joint muscle in a motion, where  I  have muscles  who can influence  down  and up stroke    as the same muscle.
 Rectus femoris  can   make a knee extension  but as well a  hip flexion, Biceps femoris on the other side  can  help  at hip  extension so  work as a   supporter  for  rectus  in the down stroke , but as well  can help upstroke  together with rectus  femoris. By using MOXY   at the same time on both I  can get some ideas on their  muscle dysbalance or better balance  as well as on their  muscle disharmony. Why?
 because my goal is not to make them to be a  cyclists but try to help them to get a better  overall coordination after  rehab and or  dysbalance problems and dysharmonie  problems.
 This  way  I  also  can better understand , why some may desaturate  extremely  in the rectus femoris  but little in hamstrings.
 Even more interesting is  that when I look actual cyclists than  they  sometimes  have the question:
 Why  can I still bike  even my SmO2  is nearly down to  zero on the vastus  lateralis ???
 Or   why can I not desaturate  in my vastus lateralis . Think on possible    options  at least in some of this  cases.
 So here  a  short inside  why I explain my clients  I  do  NOT follow   accepted  placing  for myself.  

full pictrue  fonrt bakc  and  wokr load.jpg

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #15 
Here a perfect feedback  from Balance point  and it shows  how practical research really works , Sharing information and  have more questions or selling a cook book  and  write a bible   ( Smile )  Here the great feedback    I am happy to post this to the forum, but wanted to explain to you first, so as not to muddy the waters of your great explanations…
>
> On the Quail Test…
> We stopped the test after the end of the 4th step (100/100/150/150/200/200/250/250) because he really was at his limit to complete the final step.
> However, he still had not significant;y desaturated (similar pattern to Ginny). He has skinny legs, so no “leg fat” issue. We tested him once before after a xc ski day, and he was even higher sats, so this was a repeat test. In this case, he took two full days of rest before the “test” to see if it would make a difference. The trends were a bit more obvious, but still no significant desaturation. He is almost identical power output and size to me, so it was very interesting to see the different responses to a similar test. I thought he might be a bit stronger, so I opted for 50 watt steps, rather than the 30 watt steps I do with my own testing.
>
> Because of the surprising lack of SmO2 drop, I gave him a few minutes of easy recovery (as you noted), and then did 4 x 30 seconds at 300w, while moving the moxy to four different locations, 1) vastus lateralis, 2) rectus femoris 3)hamstrong 4) deltoid. As you can see, his best desaturation was when we placed it on the deltoid. He is able to easily desat on bicep under isometric load, but completely unable to desat with isometric on his legs.
>
> I am learning LOTS but still shocked at how little I understand…
>
> Thank you for your posts and your continued patience.

 I am learning LOTS but still shocked at how little I understand

H aha  Welcome in the club  Feels  the same  every  day to me since  40 years.
  So here I like to run myself  into  trouble  and    see how that looks like.
 With  Andrews  feedback I tried  to play around  and   assessed , whether I may be able  first to find  the  30 seconds  load  and than we  can  give to each muscle picture  from that load. . But again as you will see    different options  as we had no marker  for the loads.
 The red  bar  is  one   potently hint as he lost  complete  the  signal  so could be  when he moved the MOXY  form the rectus  to the hamstrings  as this   a was somewhat more complex  than just  form VL  to RF  and than again some longer time  when moving the MOXY  from Ham  to  Delta. Here a   first look at this this options.

after test  guess of muscels.jpg 



 


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