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juergfeldmann

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 #16 
I think  your biceps  example is  exactly  that  you  can  move more  weight but really not   due to the biceps  work  but  due to  compensation.
 I  can do the same  I  can  lay down  and  CO  will have it easier as  SV is up    as a compensation as  gravity is gone.  or otehr options. I used this idea in paraplegic   athletes  for some   stimulation.
jschiltz

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 #17 
Very interesting stuff.  

I did a quick little assessment last night stair stepping up and then down in resistance with the moxy on a non priority muscle and sure enough it went down at the peak resistance i picked for the assessment and then went back up when the resistance was relaxed.  Sorry I don't have the graph or excel handy, its at home and I'm at work now.

Couple questions
- if you have an increase of plasma or a decrease of plasma that doesn't affect the SM02% correct, since its a function of oxy/oxy+deoxy

- THB readings should not change either correct ?   it seems that THB is used to represent blood volume on the forum, but its not inclusive of plasma from my understanding

- does an increase in plasma "dilute" the blood and cause the THB reading to drop on the moxy? - since the relationships between oxy and deoxy would not change the SMO2 would stay the same?

- if you are trying to increase cardiac output, you are likely doing so by expanding stroke volume, if you increase stroke volume your HR will go down at a given resistance level (say 200 watts pre, and 200 watts post) - so actual cardiac output stays the same?   you would only see the gains in actual cardiac output at a max effort right?


How can you quantify efforts to increase actual blood volume with a Moxy?   Can actual cardiac output gains be seen at a sub max effort? 

Also... a couple helpful hints on how to increase blood volume would be helpful....  googling online only gives me answers that involve needles.



sebo2000

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 #18 
Juerg,

Your post on LVET is another great eye opener, wow I'm readying on LVET now, I just love this forum. 300ms x150= 45 seconds your heart does not get any O2, I want my quads to be build from heart muscle [smile]

I found one article researching effects of exercise on LVET 

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/circulationaha/49/1/195.full.pdf

 came to the same conclusion, 
juergfeldmann

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 #19 
I will try  later to give you some  never published   feedback  on what   I did many years back  to see or give myself   some directions on  all the above  questions.

Now  one  short  hint  to the  question.
 Do we like to see a blood shift  from  arms to legs  or not  when we  work out.

The heart  can work as a  volume pump  and or  as a pressure pump.
 Normal  what ever normal means, the left ventricle  is regarded as a volume pump    and the right   ventricle as a  more pressure pump.
 . Now  you need more pressure when  you   create  what ?
  so  if we   push  an intensity , where we see in the non priority muscle a compression than ????
 So  if  your goal  or your sport  or rehab  is  to  train  more  " force "  or  more  volume  you  try to create ???
 On the otehr side  the  force  as ell has some additional physiological stimulation effects.
 So  as  usual  it is NOT  power or  load  who decides  your  training goal , it is  your  physiological reaction  to a stimulation  you created  and   the goal  you have set  . Again  what is  the goal of  your workout,    more vascularisation , more mitochondria  better MCT 1 or  mct  2  . Respiratory overload , cardiac overload   coordination  stimulation,  better utilization and so on.
Or  to   make it the  opposite.
 What  do you NOT like to stress as  it has still to recover and improve  from your last workout.
 Remember   a  very good training   should make you worse  not  better  as it is a catabolic stress. Rest  or recovery  is  where you make progress,as it is  an anabolic  stress.

BUT  who  would  pay a  coach   to tell you  you should do nothing today.
ryinc

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 #20 
@Jason, paper below might be of interest


Effectiveness of short-term heat acclimation for highly trained athletes.
Garrett AT1, Creasy R, Rehrer NJ, Patterson MJ, Cotter JD.
Author information
Abstract
Effectiveness of short-term acclimation has generally been undertaken using untrained and moderately-trained participants. The purpose of this study was to determine the impact of short-term (5-day) heat acclimation on highly trained athletes. Eight males (mean ± SD age 21.8 ± 2.1 years, mass 75.2 ± 4.6 kg, VO(2peak) 4.9 ± 0.2 L min(-1) and power output 400 ± 27 W) were heat acclimated under controlled hyperthermia (rectal temperature 38.5 °C), for 90-min on five consecutive days (T(a) = 39.5 °C, 60% relative humidity). Acclimation was undertaken with dehydration (no fluid-intake) during daily bouts. Participants completed a rowing-specific, heat stress test (HST) 1 day before and after acclimation (T(a) = 35 °C, 60% relative humidity). HST consisted 10-min rowing at 30% peak power output (PPO), 10 min at 60% PPO and 5-min rest before a 2-km performance test, without feedback cues. Participants received 250 mL fluid (4% carbohydrate; osmolality 240-270 mmol kg(-1)) before the HST. Body mass loss during acclimation bouts was 1.6 ± 0.3 kg (2.1%) on day 1 and 2.3 ± 0.4 kg (3.0%) on day 5. In contrast, resting plasma volume increased by 4.5 ± 4.5% from day 1 to 5 (estimated from [Hb] & Hct). Plasma aldosterone increased at rest (52.6 pg mL(-1); p = 0.03) and end-exercise (162.4 pg mL(-1); p = 0.00) from day 1 to 5 acclimation. During the HST T(re) and f(c) were lowered 0.3 °C (p = 0.00) and 14 b min(-1) (p = 0.00) after 20-min exercise. The 2-km performance time (6.52.7 min) improved by 4 s (p = 0.00). Meaningful physiological and performance improvements occurred for highly trained athletes using a short-term (5-day) heat acclimation under hyperthermia control, with dehydration.
sebo2000

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 #21 
Thank Ryan this is great find, very interesting, especially the fact they actually dehydrated all participants, I guess body was thinking OMG I'm running low on liquids and was storing fluids during recovery, looks like humans turning in to camels (I know camels have fat in their humps... but still [smile] 

ryinc

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 #22 
Sebo, just to point out i think it is very mild dehydration. 2 I think the result is a functional rather than structural change.
sebo2000

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 #23 
Ryan, I was thinking about body weight lose being tided to dehydration:

Body mass loss during acclimation bouts was 1.6 ± 0.3 kg (2.1%) on day 1 and 2.3 ± 0.4 kg (3.0%) on day 5

1.3kg on 1st day and 2.3kg on last seems like quite a bit for 75kg person, they do not talk about what training was done during those 5 days 90 min sessions. Just describe "test" protocol.
jschiltz

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 #24 
so after reading all about plasma, bitumin, egg whites, comparison of egg whites to blood plasma, the effects of bitumin and serium bitumin on the body, etc etc........ basically i got lost on the internet last night.... 

i'm still very curious to find out some different methods to increase blood plasma levels, and how you would quantify if you were successful in your goal.

the heat/dehydration method looks like something to use more for a function change before a race than a structural change.

so the methods for increasing plasma volumes would ideally be able to create a structural change, so the changes to stroke volume would also be structural.

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