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xcskier

Development Team Member
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Posts: 46
 #1 
It seems that NIRS could be used to measure 
a few other things (in addition to SmO2 and ThB)
such as respiratory rate (RR) and pulse strength (PI).

Can Moxy do that?

I think that having a respiratory rate and variation of the 
pulse strength (over a breathing cycle) could be potentially 
beneficial biomarkers.
Roger

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 265
 #2 
Respiratory Rate and pulse strength are possible to observe with NIRS under very limited conditions but they are difficult to measure robustly on an exercising athlete.

The effects of motion and changing load are much larger than the respiration or pulse effects.

We are not planning to measure these parameters with Moxy because it would be very unlikely to work well for athletes.  Some other device developers are promoting that their device will measure these parameters when they come out.  This would be an incredible accomplishment especially when there's no evidence that they have even solved the problem of measuring SmO2 on a 0% to 100% scale with useful accuracy like Moxy does.
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
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Posts: 1,501
 #3 
Thanks  Roger.
 Here some add ons  from a very practical point.
  There are many  equipment out  there   which offer  " HR "  but not using a   heart rate  belt  to find  the contraction feedback from the  Heart.
 In reality  they  do not measure  HR  they  speculate  that HR  is  equal  to pulse rate  which can be  ,but not  has to be the  case.
Regular readers on here see very fast  why  and  they can see  how MOXY  could be used  to proof  that  HR  is not  always  equal  rate
 How  and  why.
 Pulse rate needs a free  blood flow  so the  wave  create  or pulse  created  by  the hearts  contraction can move freely  to the place  where  the  pulse  rate  is    expected.
 So   for example a  NIRS  pulse oxymeter.

 This is the reasons  that in case  you test SpO2 on the finger in a  hypoxia  workout  for example or  to see  in  an  assessment, whether  we  may have a client   moving towards  hypercapnia  ( Right  shift of  O2  disscurve    we need  always the HR  and than compare to pulse rate. if  HR  = PR  than we are pretty confident  that the SpO2  values are  possibly   okay.

Now  if  you  use  a pulse  meter on  wrist  for example in  sport   rock climbing  what  could happen. Or in  downhill MTB  , or in  downhill skiing , or in motocross or  in  cycling ,  or in  cross country skiing.  Or  e;ts go to  the fitness world  . TRX  push ups  of or pull ups, biceps  curls, tennis  kettle bell  swing. . This are ball  activities  plus  more  where we  for  ourselves  intensity tested  the  reaction of  puls  rate  HR  and   forearm  blood  flow over t  thB. You cna  try to figure out  what  we may see in MOXY  thB   when we   had a difference between  HR  and pulse  rate.

Now  fix  a pulse  rate  equipment on your  calf  muscle and do  skipping   forefoot  running    cycling  with  toe  push  and so on  You  are  the   judges.
 Now  go and read some great studies     from


 VEGARD RASDAL

Oxygen Consumption in Cycling:

The Relationship between Whole Body Pulmonary O2 Consumption and Muscle Oxygenation in Different Muscles During Constant-Load Cycling



They  used a different  NIRS  equipment and the regular reader will fast see what  kind  if you go through the   really great paper.
 One   interesting finding  was, that lower leg muscles like calf   and  TA  react very difference  and in higher intensity really different in cycling  than  the  upper leg  muscles  like RF  VL  VM   glut  and  BI. They  made  one  small unfortunate   bubu  and  today  with internet  this   could be avoided. Never  believe  that  we  or  you or  somebody   was the first   there is  always something we   read learn or  see  which already was done.

To our knowledge, no other studies have investigated multiple muscles during constant-load cycling. Takagi et al. (2013) is the only study that has applied NIRS in investigating multiple muscles and muscle groups simultaneously during cycling


Now  back  to  NIRS  and used  in different options.
 We  use  NIRS  technology  as well  for CO2  assessment
  Nirs  can be  used for  motion   control.  Below is a  NIRS  study  done on 2  world  class  cyclist,  you can see  if  you look carefully   how much their RPM  was per minute.  What is  was more interested in was to  see how  they technically   where biking. 
So  my question was.
 Is  the increase in tHB  due  to a  compression inflow  after a compression outflow . So  you push  down,  your  RF  contracts   and you  push blood  out  muscle compression more than CO  pressure  and in the up stroke  you relax  perhaps  and than we see a  inflow  so tHB goes up.

Or  is  it a  venous occlusion in the down stroke  so tHB  goes up not down  and a  occlusion outflow  so tHB  drops . Now in thsi  2 cases    we had  unfortunately both  so 2  athletes  a very different   tHB reaction when we looked biased  reaction That as you can imagine,  destroyed  that cook book  and if  I read  any study  claiming one or  the other and never looking at Biased   I am not sure  whether their  conclusion is  right.

yama gk rpm tHb.JPG 

Below  a closer look at the section  after 1 min rest in a  5/1/5

super close look geoff at start after 1 min break.JPG 

What you see additional his  blood flow in  surface  skinny  yellow  and muscle blood flow deeper    section like MOXY  would  do  and you can see who  initial blood is getting pushed to the  surface in this athlete   but than  is moving where it is needed  to the muscle  deeper.  

Next up  NIRS  and  respiration.


here a  proposal  I made  nearly now  15  years back  how  my  dream watch  would look like

dream watch.jpg 

Now  respiration  to pick  up over NIRS. I have  an equipment  where we  can do CO2  with NIRS  and  at the same time RF.  and as such not  a lot  of  help but hints  similar  to HR  where we  do not have SV  and therefor hints  and not information in CO

Than as  mentioned  the RF  can be  on two athletes  the same but the location may be very different  as well the VC  could be very different but they have the  same RF   but very different TV.  There are some very smart  tools out there like bio harness  and I often use  two belts  and than  have some ideas on TV  as  you can see the quality of the  expansion of the thorax.  I  try  always to  connect all  and  try to buy their  equipment to tell them  for what,  but in  very  few  cases  even get an answer. I get the equipment,  pay  and that is  it they  never  come back.
 Sorry  some  exception here .
  Fortiori  with Roger got back in contact and it  was a lot  of  help  for me  to  move forward  with some crazy ideas.
  Frank Bour  from physio flow,  perfect guy  genius . Artinis and Willy Collier  with    from Portamon  and   last but not least  BTS  SEMG  from Italy  and  cosmed  from Italy.  Now  can MPOXY  do  that.
 There  could much more be done, but  the main reason  why  people buy a certain NIRS and not another one is  based  not  on their  information and knowledge,  but on the PR  ability  promises  and sales pitches of a company. For many, NIRS  sounds  exited,  but  most  not yet   understand the work behind  and the  changes  and shift behind  when you like to use  NIRS  smart.
  The price  of  any  equipment comes  with  some limitations  of  equipment  and we  as  consumers  look what is  cheap   before  we look what  can the tool  offer.

I   discussed a lot  of  dreams  with Roger on NIRS and  what I   would  see next  to move closer to   physiological  training's in the main stream population.but  all is  about money and funding  and therefor it  takes  time.
  So  thanks  for this  really great  question  which shows  I am not   the only guy  out  there  dreaming  and seeing the potential,  as I see more and more feedback on here  and  in my  daily mail box.

sebo2000

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 227
 #4 

I successfully tested “muscle quality” measurement, and confirmed with Electrical Impedance Myography device.

 

I had less precise readings when doing measurement on less developed muscles (in my case) hamstrings\triceps places with more fat are less precise.

 

Bottom line: you can check your muscle balance eg: leg\arms\back muscles quite well.

 

Stand up for 2 min, and place Moxy for a minute on left RL and then right RL write down SmO2 values, do the same with triceps. You can hold it in your hand make sure to apply the same pressure.

Make sure measurements /left/right are in the same positions, and you do not place more load on one side or the other.

With a little practice you can spot your weak muscles with easy.

 

I confirmed this with my 11 years old daughter, wife didn’t want to participate in my study because she was busy [smile]

juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #5 
Very interesting  as I  collect  since  a while  BIA  body  impedance assessments   with  phase angle  and left  right comparison as well as  lean muscle mass.And  as well with intra  and extracellular  water  and there  seems to be a  trend. Just not  enough data's  yet to   be sure   on that  but interesting to have  this feedback. I use a  European  model  called  biocorpus.
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