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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
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Posts: 1,530
 #1 
I like to  show  an incredible case  study  done  by Ruud in the Netherlands  and  sent to us  for discussion.
 Here  a very small inside  into this discussion  behind the scene.

bonk pic.jpg 

 And here  one feedback  mailed  to me  and it is  so much fun to see how   coaches  start to  think physiologically.

This is a great loud thinking   done  by a top coach   Brian Kozak  Next level coaching, who runs  clinics  and  coaches  some of the top  NHL players.

 here to enjoy   and it is  nearly scary to see, that they   start to be a real  " competition" when it comes  to analyze  ideas  and information.

Ok, Speaking or typing from the basics to understand what I see before the WHY

SmO2 flat or slight increase at Bonk and during Bonk 60% to 80%

tHb flat and then drop approx. 12.5 then down to 10.7

hrt between 120 to 140 with a slight rise at Bonk then slight drop

Wattage looks light slight drop

So why the drop in tHb and how does this make sense based on what we know:

Moxy measures the ratio of the oxyhemoglobin concentration to the total hemoglobin concentration in the muscle and reports it as a percentage, which is Smo2, which is the % of hemoglobin that is carrying O2 in muscle tissue. Hemoglobin is the molecule in red blood cells that actually carries O2from the lungs to where it is needed in the body Hemoglobin most common states are oxy and de-oxy. The measurement of SmO2 takes place in the capillaries of the muscle. This is where O2 is being consumed. SmO2 can be thought of as a measure of the balance between supply and demand for O2 in the muscle. (from the Moxy site).

So, from the data and graphs, how can SmO2 stay relatively stable or increase while tHb has a sudden drop...if the total Hemoglobin drops and the SmO2, which is the ratio of oxy concentration to the total Hemoglobin, does not-means, what|? Juergs's Jars of concentration is happening, meaning - What we see is that SmO2 does not change, so the ratio of oxyhemoglobin concentration is still 80% but 80% of 100 thb is a different number versus 80% of 1000 thb. So, following the rabbit down the hole, Ruud has 100tHb at 80% SmO2 = 80 O2 to maintain 200 watts and then Bonk and 50 tHb at 80% SmO2 for 40 O2 to maintain 200 watts and the struggle to make it home. So why the sudden drop? Just like being stranded on top of a mountain and the CG diverts the O2 to where needed for survival...but why?

Is this a picture of the 'Perfect Storm' where not just one factor, i.e. glycogen depletion, but more...i.e. dehydration, mental stress, outside temp...if O2 independent energy is dependent on O2 then is Glycogen is low does it make sense that the CG diverts O2 from the legs to...from an athletes' perspective, when we identify the early symptoms of Bonking can we adjust Breathing to see change ph to last longer or offset, drop wattage slightly...change gears to a coordination level which allows for less O2. Some thoughts...but walking through has allowed me to understand the SmO2 and tHb more clearly...here is a basketball athlete doing a RIP (explosive squats to a wall touch and repeat) look at the sudden drop in tHb and increase in SmO2..not a bonk but have not seen before.

thank for mental gymnastics,

Brian



Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
Now  here is a fun  section.  It shows  a really great lesson  at least to me.
 So I like to share it. The summary is done  from  some  much smarter  people out  there. Read  carefully  and you see what that all means.

IP philosophy.jpg

 So you know  what we  do with this section. So here the reason of our great picture  above  and where  may be something went  wrong  or  different than  what we see.

Hi Juerg

Today I tried to do another "bonk" ride. This however ended up not really a bonk ride. I did get very hungry last 15/20 minutes but I still had power in my legs (that is I still felt a lot better than the last bonk ride).

Maybe a good idea to delete the post about the bonk. Why? Previous picture I send you was based on moxy data recordings from the Garmin Edge 500. I have just however looked at the raw Moxy data from the Moxy device itself and the data looks very different (and not strange at all=> no sudden drop in tHb).

My conclusion is that it probably had (and has) to do with the garmin picking up the signal I don't know. If I look at peripedal I do see normal Thb data so it's not the signal itself so I think it's the Garmin.

If I look at the Moxy registered data I do not see strange patterns.

So. Sorry for the confusion I might have caused. But "damn Garmin".....[smile]   

  So here a possible explanation on  why and how  that  got  to this information.

Thanks for the update on this.
 
The Garmin problem might have had to do with how our hack works to get the data to show up as speed and cadence. The Garmin might have an option to automatically update the wheel size based on the GPS data. If the wheel size changes, it will change the magnitude of the THb value. You might want to check that the wheel size is set to "Manual" and the value is set to 2070 mm if you are displaying speed in km/hr.
 
Roger

Summary : unseen real  and unreal seen.jpg  What is the fun part, that the  interpretation of the  data   still hold. What   is unreal is, that we   may  see a "bonking " reaction that nicely in the  MOXY information.
 What I wonder    as a feedback  from the TECHY's    out there,  how   is it possible that this  is  showing up , when he simply keeps  riding  and nothing is changing besides the performance ??
 Help    and remember you have to explain this to a TECHY  Dummie  like me.

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