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Gunnar

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 #1 
I've done a 5-1-5 again on the bike. This time having one moxy on VL and one on deltoid. 

I would be more than happy to get some comments on it. I have attached the .csv files for the moxy. Power and heart rate are in the VL moxy file.

The first question I have is again, what is the limiter.
Bike 5-1-5 (23.04.2017).png 

 
Attached Files
csv 5-1-5 Bike VL 22.04.2017.csv (534.14 KB, 16 views)
csv 5-1-5 Bike Deltoid 22.04.2017.csv (384.40 KB, 10 views)

juergfeldmann

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 #2 
we have to  look at  delta  for  confirmation but   if  somebody has only one MOXY  the   picture  shows.

 No  cardiac limitation.  no respiratory limitation.
 
 limiter is a  local VL   circulation limitation so local delivery limitation  paired  whit a   limitation in mitochondria density  This  often goes   hand in hand.  Capillarisation density is needed  before  you can increase mitochondria density. Summary Local muscular limitation   for local delivery limitation paired  with a local  utilization limitation.
 To see  whether this is a general  lower body leg limitation  you can do another workout    outside or  where ever  and place   the MOXY on RF  or  a hamstrings muscle.
  look at  the  second  last  or last 300 w load    you not  finished  out of  what ever reason  and  than tries  another 350  not very successful either. look  at cardiac  reaction ?/ what do you see how long where the loads  ? ion last 300 w  and    350 watts ?
ryinc

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 #3 
Juerg, i came to the same conclusion on no evidence of respiratory or cardiac limitation. My guess would have been muscle utilization limiter.

My questions:
 - Can you describe what thought process you are going through to  conclude that there is  both a local delivery and local utilization limiter - i.e. how do you know that it is a capillary density and mitochondrial density problem and not just say a mitochondrial density problem
 - If i recall, in previous 5-1-5, we discussed the possibility of an abnormally high slow-twitch muscle fibre "masking" the true utilization picture (since Moxy measures myoglobin too, and the dissociation curve of myoglobin being left of that of hemoglobin would mean utilization might appear lower). How do we rule this out as the reason for the assessment picture? Or is it that there is a strong correlation between muscle fibre make-up, capillary density and mitochondrial density and so these are almost different ways of saying similar things?
- What are some of the additional assessment ideas that Gunnar could run, to try to pinpoint what is going on?
CraigMahony

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 #4 
Good questions ryinc. I am going to take a stab at answering one but am just guessing really. I would have thought that if Gunnar had a high myoglobin it would have shown by having higher SmO2 levels in the first two double loads. He does not go above 70% except in the rebounds during rest.
Gunnar

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 #5 
I'm still a bit confused about the results I had in my first ever 5-1-5 where the VL had Smo2 values that were very high even with higher loads. 
The last 5-1-5 I did two days ago was on my right VL. The first ever was on the left VL.

Today I did some intervals with a load of 223 W. I have two moxies. One on left VL and one on right VL.

The results can be seen below. First the right VL:

Screen Shot 2017-04-24 at 22.09.52.png 
Here the Smo2 values drop much further than they did in my last 5-1-5 on the same muscle. Placement is identical. My theory is that the muscle is a tired from training previous days. 
The 5-1-5 on saturday was done after 2 days of full recovery.

Now my left VL

Screen Shot 2017-04-24 at 22.10.22.png  Those Smo2 values are much higher than those of the right VL.
What is the explanation for this? I remember to have seen this also in the first ever 5-1-5. The left VL around 90% and the right considerably lower.

So my two questions today are:
1. Why is there such a difference between the 5-1-5 last saturday where the Smo2 on the right VL was considerably higher than the Smo2 in the same muscle today, even though the load today is lower?
2. Why is there such a big difference between Smo2 on left and right VL?

(I had some problem with the software and the control of my Kickr... therefore the power data are very ugly)

 
Attached Files
csv Bike - VL right 24.04.2017.csv (622.99 KB, 4 views)
csv Bike - VL left 24.04.2017.csv (451.20 KB, 3 views)

juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #6 
What are some of the additional assessment ideas that Gunnar could run, to try to pinpoint what is going on?

1
. To  the  first on this  thread look at  delta reaction SmO2  or better  O2Hb  drops .
What  do you see  and  ask priority  and non priority  muscle  what is going on there ?

2 Forget  the left  right comparison here  why:
all 3  smo2.jpg 

And here    when you look  fast on tHb all three

tHb all three.jpg   Question on leg position in the one minute   between VLr   22 and 224  if  it is the same position  than interesting   hint  from his  body ?

Whta hint ?
 
If  you have the answer  then look at one  decent data collection  step   22 and 24  VL r

so around 1800 time  slot  and look closer there   zoom in  or  once you are used  liekin a  EKG  you can see already  what the difference is between 22 and 24.

For  Physio Flow user  you would have  the confirmation in the  CCT  (  HR  x LVET ? For  MOXY user  zoom  in .
 In the  first  test we  assumed  a muscular  limitation in utilization and    locla delivery. So  who  would compensate in a  assessment to nearly all out  respectively  I think he pushed  hard as he did not finished  the second  load 300 and still  try  to push 350. Why  did  he  do  that in the  first place  not  finishing the second load.   Not   possible  or  why ?

 For  some   emails and a   nice  call I  had  with Andri.
  Remember the  cardiac study   with NIRS  and the   I  argued  bad  cook book   on SmO2  reaction. here  why. 

vl 22 and 24 r smo2  one load.jpg   below  same load  but start only  closer  and than end  only closer 

vl 22 and 24 r smo2  one load  start sectiom.jpg 
vl 22 and 24 r smo2  one load  end sectiom.jpg   

Gunnar

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 #7 
Thank you for your comments Juerg. Still I'm not sure I do fully understand what they are saying.

The reason I stopped during the second 300W is because I was tired. The same reason on the 350W.
juergfeldmann

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 #8 
Gunnar be  patient  and  think through  your great data. Look  the last  " tired ": 300 watts   load  and look the bio data  like HR  for example . Compare it  with the    300 you did. Than look  the  350    the same. So  the  question would be , Why  did  you tried  350  after a  not really  successful second  300. Than  look   one load  graph    and the start and end of  the same load  when we  compare  the 22 and 24 assessment.
 Think less  in  terms  of performance but more in term of  delivery  and utilization. look at the  SmO2  trends   and  think  through  from the term of    delivery  and utilization.  Than go  back  to the  22   assessment and look  the   delta reaction  in that assessment. same  , think in terms  of  delivery  and utilization. 
  Now  if a  non priority  muscle is really non priority   and  you create a  delivery limitation  form  your  CO  than   you may see in some  people  who  can push    hard a  blood volume shift  from non priority  to priority . If  that is the  case  we  still have the  same resting  O2  demand in the delta  but we  have less  O2  delivery  so    HHb  will be the same but  O2Hb  will drop so  in total   tHb  drops  and SmO2  as a  %  of  O2Hb    to tHb  will drop as well. I f your non priority  muscle  is  getting involved in trying to maintain performance  than you see a  increase in muscle contraction so tHb  drops  as in  shift but  HHb  goes s up  and  O2Hb  goes  down  faster  due  to  O2  demand. Go back  to the delta  and   look at this    options. Then you will have  an interesting feedback  on how you may  try to maintain performance  and  than you have to ask yourself  is  that planned than great  is  it just happening  without  your  control than perhaps  some  adjustments  could be done. 

Now  the answer leads  to SEBOOs   own findings  why we  often   actually  attach a NIRS in non priority muscles  in races or  hard    loads.

So in a  sport  where  legs  are  clearly the priority muscles  you get much more feedback   from non priority muscles in  a hard  loads  than from the  anyway    highly demanding  leg muscles. Hint :

 If  you have a delivery limitation  like cardiac  or   respiratory limitation  of  CO2  release or a  actual  respiratory metaboreflex  than  the  CG  will;  do  what  ?

If  there is  no cardiac  delivery limitation so  you  could  have many more  areas  asking  for O2  and  you can deliver  but your priority muscle  has a a local  limitation in delivery and in  utilization  than  you   will try  to work  how   and you lose what ?

This  is  what we look in Seboos  race. 

 Summary.   Forget really 5/1/5  if  you do performance sport  this is great  for  fitness assessments  in people  working out  to improve   overall  fitness. In  sport specific  goal setting the  assessment  is the sport or the  discipline  itself . A tennis player   has to be tested  by playing tennis. A  swimmer in the water  swimming a  skier on  the snow  and an ice hockey player  during a game  and so on.
 It is really   strange , that people  like to test a    ice-hockey player on a bike  to tell  whether he  is a  good  trained  ice hockey player  or   I had a  message  will come back  to test a motocross  biker on a  stationary  bike ????

Performance is  tested in the  sport specific  performance.  and physiological  limitation   are tested   at the same time or better assessed.
Gunnar

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 #9 
ok Juerg, your statement that a 5-1-5 might not be the assessment for my kind of sport reflects the same thoughts I had already at the beginning.

Let's assume that I want to increase the capillarisation in the legs as a first step. How can I with a Moxy do a measurement to verify that this has indeed improved after training?
ryinc

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Posts: 355
 #10 
Hi Gunnar

I will have a stab to help (caution though as not sure i understood it all).

1. The problem is not that cardiac output is not sufficient
2. The recovery periods give you a window into what delivery looks like (since utilization and muscle compression is "switched off" in these periods). So if you assume your cardiac output remains unchanged, but your capillary bed improves what might you expect for tHb (and maybe Sm02) relative to baseline for a 5-1-5?
3. Indirectly, if your non-priority muscle is getting involved to try help out at a certain load, and you then improve your capillary bed what might you expect to see in respect of the point at which that non-priority muscle starts to get involved.


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