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runner

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 #1 
I am trying to understand better the benefits and differences
between Intermittent Hypoxic Exposure (IHE) and hypercapnia.

With IHE we are exposed to high altitude (real or simulated)
and therefore just breathe air with less oxygen. The main
physiological benefit is increased red blood cell count and
possibly improved oxygen delivery to muscles.

Hypercapnia is an elevated level of carbon dioxide in the
arterial blood. This can be achieved with various breathing
techniques (Buteyko, slow and shallow breathing, etc.) or
devices (aforementioned Frolov, etc.).

What are the main physiological adaptions and responses
of hypercapnia?

sebo2000

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 #2 

I can answer part of this question from empirical perspective:

I have started hyperventilation (hypercapnia) training just 2 months ago maybe a bit earlier, but not much earlier, I’m fairly new.

I my case comfort of all out sprints improved dramatically. What do I mean by that:

In the past (last season) I could lunch a sprint and first 5sec I was fairly comfortable, then I felt urge to breathe, after 10s I just had to take a breath, going 15s was a stretch and last 5s of that 15s was really not that productive from power perspective, I could not get my power up in those last crucial 5s. Hell, I could not even keep it at the first 5s level, power was always going down. I was half chocking, half surviving, burning\flaming lungs.

I noticed that during summer it was much easier to survive those burning lungs than during cold times 5C and below. During winter all of those times would have to be cut in half or I could really literally get my lungs on fire.

 
Recently after just 2-3 weeks of training with increased CO2, comfort of the sprints improved by a mile. I’m not chocking, I’m not half surviving, I do not see Jesus anymore. My lungs are not on fire, I have full control of the bike and can easily execute any strategy I had in mind, looking at the people beside me and controlling the pace. I can sprint now in colder weather the same as I was during summer, same power and actually better without lung burning sensation. (I honestly thought this is impossible in 5C weather)

 

I do not think my O2 intake changed much, Moxy still shows my HHB sky high during sprints, but I suspect my CO2 tolerance increased a lot, and my breathing got more controllable. In the past I had to use auxiliary muscles after and during sprint (during was just introducing even more CO2) , now I can equalize with consistent diaphragm breathing. I can concentrate on holding line and pushing pedals getting more aero instead of trying to catch a breath.

 

Increased 2,3DPG (due to CO2) makes it easier for O2 to unload from myoglobin. At the same time it is harder to load O2 in lungs on to hemoglobin, but because I can handle CO2 better, process of homeostasis is achieved much easier without burning lungs.

 

Can you point me to any research that says IHT causes increased RBC production? All I was able to find says IHT is not enough to increase O2 transport, at list once a day is not enough. 

runner

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Posts: 59
 #3 
Here's one article about increase in EPO due to hypoxia
exposure:
http://erj.ersjournals.com/content/37/4/880

There was also a good overview of hypoxia in
"Real and Simulated Altitude Training and Performance"

by Michael J. Hamlin, Nick Draper and John Hellemans


The benefits of altitude training for elite athletes
have received mixed reviews mainly due to indequate
studies and poor design.

For instance, a meta analysis by Bonetti shows no benefits:
http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol174/bonetti.htm

but personally I believe that there's a good enough support that
hypoxia exposure (primarily live high, train low) is beneficial.

sebo2000

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 #4 

Good articles, no question about live high train low, it’s proven by many.

 

Question is about intermittent hypoxia at sea level with all kids of hypoxicators, altitude generators, tents etc.

I guess anything comes down to few questions:

 

How long and at what level of Spo2 we need to stimulate kidneys with CO2 before they start producing erythropoietin, eg is Spo2 90% enough or we need to go to 80%?

Is 1h enough or we need to do it for 2 hours?

 

I read somewhere about peak of erythropoietin production after 1h of low O2 stimulation is happening after about 5-6 hours, that would imply best effect would be achieved if we use hypoxia every 5-6 hours. (Can you image to wake up at night to do hypoxia [smile]

 We know increased level of erythropoietin for 4 days motivates RBC to increase in count, and to maximize the effect it would have to be done for 2 weeks.

 

At my amateur level if feels like a lot of work for relatively small gains, and they disappearing equally quick as they came…

Again I train for fun and health benefits, and I’m limited by time etc, using hypoxicator for 1h every 6 hours would drive my family absolutely nuts [smile] And I have doubts using it once a day would increase RBC count, so the only benefit would be to have higher tolerance to CO2 which I was able to achieve with berthing modifications.

 

On top of that by looking at Moxy my Smo2 situation looks quite good at the moment I think I could use help in other areas.

 

It is interesting in: http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/csa/vol174/bonetti.htm they train at altitude to increase RBC but they do not measure actual RBC count but do performance power based test….makes no sense to me. RBC count could actually increase, but they could lose muscle mass due to excessive CO2 or simply to lighter training due to less O2…

runner

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Posts: 59
 #5 
This is a good summary of how to use IHE for training:
http://fellrnr.com/wiki/Intermittent_Hypoxic_Exposure

According to the above (which is a modified AltoLabs approach)
you have several different options of how often train. Maybe in
the beginning you do longer 1 hour sessions per day and
then you can shorten it to 30min/day to maintain.
Benefits don't disappear very quickly. So, once you build it,
it'll stay for a while.

I haven't tried this myself (but I am planning to), so I can't
comment on it first hand.
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #6 
Not as a critic,  but as  a   thought
I have started hyperventilation (hypercapnia) 

Hyperventilation means  hyper  more  than you  actually naturally  would  ventilate ( breath) . So  you breath instead of  30 l /min 40 liter per minute  . By  30 liter during the  activity  you would be normocapnic, so balanced  CO2.
 Now  if  you  breath more than needed  you release more  CO2  than  you should and you are therefor  hypocapnic,  too low  in CO2.
sebo2000

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Posts: 226
 #7 
@Juerg absolutely, thanks for spotting the mistake: hypoventilation training. I breath less, eg. instead of 3 steps I do 10-15 steps and breath.

@Runner can you post data from Moxy on non involved muscle when you will be doing this, I'm curious about thb and smo2 how it might be affected.

I think blood oxygen carrying capacity needs more stimulation than just once a day to improve.
Lets say you will bring down Spo2 to 80%, your kidneys will realize wow we are dealing with a lot of CO2 and start producing Erythropoietin, Erythropoietin half life is 5 hours so 10 hours after using that device there is theoretically no trace of Erythropoietin in your body. 
When you get this tool, can you also post data from spo2 meter? 

runner

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Posts: 59
 #8 
Erythropoietin (EPO) indeed has a half-life of 5 hours. But, it's a hormone for red blood cell
production so it shouldn't matter as long as the red blood cells are produced during that
period. During that 5+ hour window your red blood cell production is increased due to
IHE. And red blood cells have a much longer lifespan (100–120 days) before they
are recycled.

I will post more data in a few months after I start playing with this more.


ryinc

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Posts: 367
 #9 
Interesting discussion. Just a reminder point on one of the things that has really hit home to me from this forum - be careful to make judgments about whether a particular type of training works or doesn't work. Fundamentally the training is likely to work well if it targets the limiter and might not work as well if it is not targeting the limiter. So how effective  altitude training etc, is likely to be is likely to be different from individual to individual, given limiters are not the same across different athletes. 
runner

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Posts: 59
 #10 
There was an interesting blog post by Steve Magness (the author of The Science of Running)
about responders vs. non-responders:
http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2017/02/the-myth-of-the-non-responder.html
Kirill

Development Team Member
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Posts: 94
 #11 
I analyze data from http://www.jamda.com/article/S1525-8610(15)00072-9/abstract

and find this

You see?

[oDFpD1gD0c0] 

[42un_sx9Hw8] 

[SkpExErWHW4]  [tr4aE-NfeQQ] 
Kirill

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 94
 #12 
If you add more (+2) sessions, nonresponders.... respond!

[vKz3RRa7-dc]


[ILTvOBUQXLE]   
Kirill

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Posts: 94
 #13 
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147330

A huge methodological error - hung up on terms Wmax and the VO2MAX. We must look for correlations with OBLA (second ventilation threshold) and the result of the race in 1 hour

There are people with Wmax 500 watts without training, it is generally nothing says.


So, when the estimated result, the measure actually a noise. +30-70 watts is nothing, is the noise.

It is the source and cause of the low quality of scientific papers.
Kirill

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Posts: 94
 #14 
"How long and at what level of Spo2 we need to stimulate kidneys with CO2 before they start producing erythropoietin, eg is Spo2 90% enough or we need to go to 80%?"

Not only kidney produce EPO. Liver, brain, retina.
And... skeletal muscle!
http://dx.doi.org.sci-hub.cc/10.1249/MSS.0000000000000899

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10404497
https://vk.com/doc238707177_437449596

HIIT training (95-170% Wmax) and sprint training (Wingate), strength (squat, deadlift, leg press) - also stimulate release blood cells and EPO, growth total HB mass.

HIIT stimulate release reticulocite, not only EPO
sebo2000

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Posts: 226
 #15 
Initial discussion was about altolab device, poor/busy man version of altitude training.

Instead of going to altitude, you use the device while seating on your couch and trying to recreate low O2 levels same as on high altitude, no exercises, no HIIT etc.

http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/33/5/668?sso-checked=true

Article above says after initial 6 hours of being at altitude, level of erythropoietin rapidly increased.

If altitude was above 3000m it would correspond to SpO2 approximately below 89%.

I'm wondering to get the same results one would have to use altolab for 6 hours, or one hour at 89% would be enough...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17955945

I guess there is a lot of variables, article below says exposure for 3h didn't bring any results: http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/19/7/1389.full

There is a lot of variables, top out your Iron levels first I guess, also 5-1-5 should clearly show O2 limitation, if we have plenty of O2 this entire discussion would place us in non responded group, hence I said I personally would look for gains somewhere else.
I'm assuming Runner is keen on trying based on his 5-1-5 O2 limitation assessment results.

I'm kinda looking at this not from training and gains perspective but from exposure perspective.

Take 10 healthy  flatlanders without any resp. issues, check their RBC level, let them breath for 1 hour @85-89% SpO2 and measure erythropoietin level every hour, repeat at list 10 days and see the results. 

Bottom line: With Moxy we can fairly easy asses if particular stimulus makes sense, and potentially how much benefits it could bring.
 








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