Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #1 
First of  all : Super great  presentation and really fun to  listen and  to watch. Thanks  so much  for the  time as I  well know how m8hc work  and time is involved  in  ideas  and  stdueis like that . Well done .

Now PLEASE  /PLEASE
 do not  look at my question as a critic  in what ever you did  as a group  but  the questions  are  at least for me fundamentally important  , because  I may have to review 15 +-  years  of ideas   studies  and work  in combination with NIRS.
And  NIRS researcher  may have to review  the ability  and  feedbacks we may get or not get  from NIRS. I like to start  veyr small and step  by step  so  perhaps more people can chip in.
 I had  ( sorry my   still poor English )  listen  2 - 3 times  into certain sections of the  presentation and  it may simply turn out , that I understood it  wrong  .


1. In the hypothesis.
50 m sprint  will be anaerobic  so there for   no  or   veyr small use of  O2  during this effort.
200 m more likely  aerobic  so need  and ability to us ea  lot more  O2 .


2. IN the  discussion of the found  results.  your group  points  out, that the result is exactly as predicted.
Meaning  50m  anaerobic  so no O2  use  or minimal.
 200 m aerobic  so lots  of O2  use.

Now here the  one result of  a  single  swimmer overlapped  of 4    graphs.



one sathele   spirnt  and 200 m.jpg 

Now  again I may be wrong  but it looks to me  SmO2 in the 50 m sprint  which is anaerobic  drops   further done  than  during the 200 m swim ????  So  when we   go  from this  and we  look  at the summary  see below.
conclusion.jpg


Summary   and  question
 Based on the explanation:
 50 m is anaerobic  and therefor  does not use  O2 per definition. So a lower SmO2  %  as shown in the work is an indication of  anaerobic  no O2 involved  workout where  as  a 200 m aerobic swim will show less  drop in SmO2  % indicating a much higher  O2  use  ???
So a  drop in O2Hb  which crates a  drop in SmO2  and suppose to indicate a  use of  O2  and an increase in HHb  is an indication of  anaerobic ???

Based on this  we may have to review a lot  what I  write here on the forum  which is okay  as long  it may  be  real.

juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #2 
Now based on the  answer  above  we  have  some follow up questions.

 Here a preview:
a) SmO2 is a %  of  what ?
So a  lower  SmO2  may not  always indicate a lower O2  content below  MOXY

b) Did  your group   as well looked  at tHb as tHb  can explain a lot more  than the  possible idea  of  "aerobic  and anaerobic ?"

c)  Did  your group took after  50 m  lactate  and after 200 m lactate   and if Yes  what where the   lactate values  immediately  after 50 m  and  immediately after 200 m.

 For  all lactate users  what  would we  expect  and why ?  This less about  beet  juice  where we  can come back later  as much more   some fundamental difference as you can see  how we  make  SmO2 interpretation and why we  look at tHb  as well  rather than just SmO2.
  Here one more point SmO2  is   simply a  %  indicator  of  the  O2 loaded on O2 Hb  in the total Hb situation.
 
So  my question would be, whether it  would make as well sense  to look at tHb  if we look beet juice and   potential  vasodilatation as tHb is often sued as an indicator  of   change in blood volume. ?

So  if  you have still the  raw  csv  file  from MOXY  can you   share  them  with us  here by simply sending the csv  files ?  Again thanks so much  for the great  webinar but I hope   the readers can understand  the    question, as it indicates exactly the opposite  of what we  often r  try to explain here and  therefore no wonder Jiri  writes  that his  colleagues  can not understand  what  I am talking about here. Same would be the case  in this  webinar, as the  university  supporting this study  clearly  ends  up  with a very different the  take  and yes   I  may have to go back  and revisit  many of  my posts  therefor the  same as this group below here.

deoxy N.jpg 


juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #3 
I like to add some additional  ideas to this great webinar  and still hope  for some  discussion and answerers .  Below a   training  done in Montreal  by Dominique  a  world  class  swim coach  with two  world class athletes  a  few years back . She   is using MOXY  and   mounts  them on different parts of the swimmer body.
 Here  an overview of a full workout

3 blocks thb smo2.jpg 

Than a  very short inside view in the interpretation, which than will help to  find limiter and compensator and change the  training ideas accordingly
 Below  a  small inside  view  what  than can be the  answer  and how  certain ideas of the training  may change.

chnage  from  free flwo to occ t.jpg 
.
 Feedbacks and  data collection  courtesy  to Dominique ( Thanks as usual  will look for your athletes in Rio)

juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #4 
With nearly 500 years  of  festivity  for beet juice  it may be  fun to look at some  interesting contradiction as we  see as well in the great   webinar presented  to us.  I like  to show  2 interesting   papers   with a very different  take on the  option of  beet juice and its effectiveness.  I highlighted  them red in the  text

To beet or not to beet? Researchers test theories of beet juice benefits

By Marjorie S. Miller

January 19, 2015

UNIVERSITY PARK, Pa. -- Athletes who down beet juice before exercising to increase blood flow and improve performance may be surprised at the results of a recent study conducted at Penn State's Noll Laboratory. While beetroot juice rich in nitrates did not enhance muscle blood flow or vascular dilation during exercise, researchers found that it did "de-stiffen" blood vessels under resting conditions, potentially easing the workload of the heart.

Endurance athletes have been known to consume the crimson supplement based on the belief that it may improve blood and oxygen flow in their muscles during training and competition. Some strength and power athletes consume it in hopes that it can improve their ability to withstand muscle fatigue during repeated bouts of high intensity exercise. Now, some patients are asking their doctors if they should drink the juice to lower their high blood pressure.

Those potential benefits are what prompted David Proctor, professor ofkinesiology and physiology at Penn State, to test the ability of the juice to enhance blood flow to exercising muscles.

Proctor, with other researchers, found that the widely held belief regarding improved muscle blood flow did not hold up to their test. They report their results in the journal Applied Physiology, Nutrition, and Metabolism.

Proctor and his colleagues gave subjects either a placebo drink containing beetroot juice minus the nitrate or a relatively high dose of nitrate-rich beetroot juice. They found that the latter did not enhance the natural rise in blood flow to the forearm muscles during graded handgrip exercise.

"Beetroot juice also had no effect on the dilation (widening) of the brachial artery in these volunteers," said lead author and Penn State physiology graduate student Jin-Kwang Kim.

Nitrates, found in highest concentrations in leafy green vegetables such as spinach and beetroot, are converted naturally in the body to nitric oxide, a molecule that relaxes and widens blood vessels and affects how efficiently cells use oxygen. A number of manufacturers have found ways to liquefy beetroots and concentrate the nitrate into beetroot juice "shots."

"Although several studies have reported indirect evidence of improved muscle oxygenation during exercise after consuming nitrate-rich supplements such as beetroot juice, none of these studies directly measured blood flow to the contracting muscles," Proctor said. "Our study was the first to directly test this possibility in humans."

"The absence of any direct effect on forearm muscle blood flow or artery dilator function was not due to a lack of absorption of the supplement into the blood stream," Proctor added.

"Measurements of the breakdown product of the nitrate in the participants' blood indicated that these participants absorbed the nitrate from the drink and converted it to nitrite, the precursor to nitric oxide," Proctor said.

The investigators also observed a direct correlation between nitrite levels in the blood and the slowing of participants' arterial pulsation velocity, an indication that the supplement did indeed have a biological (artery de-stiffening) effect.

"However, there are circumstances unique to our experimental design that should be considered, as with any study, before drawing any broad conclusions," Proctor said. "We speculate that the null effects on muscle blood flow observed in this first study resulted from two factors."

"Subjects were young individuals with blood pressure and cholesterol levels in the 'very healthy' range, he noted. "Therefore, the lack of improvement in muscle blood flow and vessel function following nitrate supplementation could result from the fact that these subjects had well-preserved vascular endothelial function to begin with."

"A second contributor could be the relatively small range of forearm exercise intensities we examined in this study."

"It is possible that any blood flow enhancing effect of dietary nitrate will only be apparent during higher intensity and fatiguing work intensities; conditions within the muscle that favor the conversion of nitrite to nitric oxide," Proctor said.

Building on this study, Proctor and his colleagues are currently conducting an investigation of the effects of beet juice/nitrate supplementation on vascular function in older adults, including those with elevated blood pressure and impaired muscle blood flow during exercise.

Penny Kris-Etherton, Distinguished Professor of Nutrition, contributed to the study, as did Ann C. Skulas-Ray, research associate in nutritional sciences. Additional authors include David J. Moore, of Penn State'sIntercollege Graduate Degree Program in Physiology; David G. Maurer, a graduate student in Penn State's Department of Kinesiology; Michael P. Flanagan, of Penn State Hershey College of Medicine; and Swati Basu and Daniel B. Kim-Shapiro, professors in the department of physics at Wake Forest University. The Social Sciences Research Institute at Penn State funded this study.

 Now    many of the studeis of  this university  are based on the classical ideas  of limitations   and VO2  and lactate are  dominate in  most studies.

  Now  read the next one : Now  this  group  and the two names  may sound very familiar  as  we just had a great  summary by Joyner  about the fact that there  is no such thing like anaerobic and more  and Calbet   did  some major  research in the  sleeping giant  and   control of BP  due to  CO limitation Read    and think  and  have fun. I will be back later oin some interesting studies  on vasodilatation  substances  and why limiter and compensator  are a greeat tool to see, whether it  at least theoretical  could work  or due  to certain limitations  not  at all. What  do we look  for  what limiter  would not allow  any effect on vasodilatation.  ?
 

Disparity in regional and systemic circulatory capacities: do they affect the regulation of the circulation?

 

Calbet JA, Joyner MJ.

 

Author information

 

  • Department of Physical Education, University of Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Campus Universitario de Tafira s/n, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Spain. lopezcalbet@gmail.com

 

Abstract

 

In this review we integrate ideas about regional and systemic circulatory capacities and the balance between skeletal muscle blood flow and cardiac output during heavy exercise in humans. In the first part of the review we discuss issues related to the pumping capacity of the heart and the vasodilator capacity of skeletal muscle. The issue is that skeletal muscle has a vast capacity to vasodilate during exercise [approximately 300 mL (100 g)(-1) min(-1)], but the pumping capacity of the human heart is limited to 20-25 L min(-1) in untrained subjects and approximately 35 L min(-1) in elite endurance athletes. This means that when more than 7-10 kg of muscle is active during heavy exercise, perfusion of the contracting muscles must be limited or mean arterial pressure will fall. In the second part of the review we emphasize that there is an interplay between sympathetic vasoconstriction and metabolic vasodilation that limits blood flow to contracting muscles to maintain mean arterial pressure. Vasoconstriction in larger vessels continues while constriction in smaller vessels is blunted permitting total muscle blood flow to be limited but distributed more optimally. This interplay between sympathetic constriction and metabolic dilation during heavy whole-body exercise is likely responsible for the very high levels of oxygen extraction seen in contracting skeletal muscle. It also explains why infusing vasodilators in the contracting muscles does not increase oxygen uptake in the muscle. Finally, when approximately 80% of cardiac output is directed towards contracting skeletal muscle modest vasoconstriction in the active muscles can evoke marked changes in arterial pressure.

 

PMID:

 

20345408

 

[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #5 
after some more scientifique  information above  with as usual  2  clear opposite option  here  some historical   points. Going though a  typical Swiss humanistique  school  with Latin and Greek as  a base  of the   education, there was  and  interestingly enough still is no escape , as looking  first back  who already did  what and how successful.
 Knowing   history  may avoid a lot of   duplication and repeats  of  earlier mistakes  or missing of  some great  information. See, again  2  opposite options ? 
Beet. During my short life span   there was already 2  times a beet hype.
 First  time as I was  an  active athlete  getting  ready to try out for the 1976  winter Olympic in speed skating. Yes you guessed  ,it beet juice was  the secret  weapon.
 Than we  always  have regular some secret ingredient  some   allowed  some less official used .
The  Selen  games , the L arginine  games  the   Ginko biloba  games , the  creatinine hype and so on.
 Many  of the stdueis    you can find  have  as so often   results  for  or   less  positive as we see in this  short  feedback on beet juice.

 Here some  more  physiological  feedback   why  again we may see responder  and non responder.  Remember , when  the  studies  are designed  they often take the classical feedbacks like VO2  max. As  so often mentioned  together  with LT 2   this    results  do not  give any feedback on what may have limited   a better  result.
 The %  of the   end result  is used  on the group  which will be tested  no matter  whether 70 %   may be a very different intensity   from a physiological point  of  view.

 Thee  assessment idea we propose  with NIRS  and or combination of  more tools  is designed  to try to find  limiter  and compensator  rather than an absolute  pint  for  calculation of speculated intensities.
 NIRS  searches  for individual  physiological back up  intensities   and they may  as well give some feedback on  actual limiters.

 Now  if e  look  for  results like  with beet juice e or any vasodilatation  agent ( More popular in some testing is Viagra  or  Sildenafil. ( some interesting stdueis  done  from a group in LA  in combination with cardiac hemodynamic using the physio  flow..
  Now most people know  the PR  of Viagra  ( good morning )  and the  warning which comes  with it  that if you have some cardiac  problem and you take  already  some   medication which may  increase blood flow  ( vasodilatation )  and you add  another one   , Beet juice  or in the  PR  Viagra  you may have a sudden  drop in BP  and  some problems ?

 Now here the  connection.
 If  you have a  cardiac limitation and you  try to increase  blood flow  additional  with a vasodilatator  and you go veyr hard  as mentioned in the  work  form Calbet  an d Joyner, the  CG   or the lack of Cardiac  out put   ability will create a vasoconstriction counter  balance  the  vasodilatation effect  to  maintain  BP.
 If the same people go   slower  so medium intensity , where  cardiac out pout is not reaching its limitation  you may see a increase in SmO2  due  to increase in vasodilatation. Summary : A  cardiac limitation paired  with a high intensity   may create  non responder on beet juice  or  any vasodilatation  ingredients..
 Now let's look at muscular limitation. If you have a  strength limitation  so that your  50 %  of maximal strength is easy reached  you will create  at least a compression  problem if not a venous out flow  problem. The counter balance  would be the  heart over CO. Now  the increase in CO  will create a vasodilatation due to pressure.
  What will happen  if we  now create a  systemic vasodilatation not over pressure but over   relaxation ? Will this help to overrule the muscle  contraction force or not ? Now  lets assume we have a  vascularisation limitation   would beet juice  or   vasodilatator  help?

 How  about respiration.
 2 option  as a limitation . Dempsey's  explain metabo rreflex reflex.
 Beet juice  good  or bad ?
 Lets look actual respiratory  limitation due to a limited VE. At  high intensity  this limitation  can create a EIAH or  a  low  SpO2  due  to  a high   cO2  level ( hypercapnia ) High CO2 is a potent  vasodilatator  in the systemic  system. So  you add beet juice . ????? You  may create  anew limiter  and who would that be ?


 To end up this  fun section  here some more feedback  form the past.
Originally  and still today you use   the leafs  form the beets  as well as the root.  The leaves  where veyr early used and  taste  close to Swiss  chard. The old  Greeks  ( see  ) and the Romans  actually used  this   for  their food. The  actual roots  where much later  cultivated  and possible in Italy but some argue   more  in Germany  we look at  early 15oo.
 Around  1747 Andreas Sigismund Marggraf a german chemist was able  to extract  sugar  from beets.
 One of his students  Franz Achard than  was even more successful and extracted  much more efficient  sugar  and  now  the  world  open  up  for many  new  ideas  including beer and molasses, which in Europe  is still produced. With this a  whole industry  of  sugar production exploded in  Europe  Germany  Switzerland  and so on.
About 15 - 20 %  of todays sugar in the world  comes  from  sugar beets.
 The interesting advantage is that  beet sugar production  needs  much less water 3 - 5 times less than  sugar cane  so it opens  sugar production in  countries like  Egypt  or  other with  some  water limitation. Going back to the Greeks  an Romans. Beet  was their  Viagra  and in  many stories   this show s up  like in the famous  city of Pompeii in they  red light   shops. The famous  Aphrodite, the goddess of love,  was eating beets, ( which really did not made too much sense but  still history  tells  us   that she  tried to  enhance her sexual life ..  Much later   researcher  found a possible  explanation of this  stories  by analyzing beet  roots.
 It contains  different substances like boron ,  or betaine and the famous  tryptophan all suppose  to make  you feel good  and enhance ( mainly Boron ) the  amount of sexual hormones.  So really in any case if you can not bike  faster  you still may feel better. So nothing to loose enjoy  as I will have a lot  of beets  in the fall out of my garden.
dclarke

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 6
 #6 
Is this webinar available for viewing?

Thanks, Duncan

juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #7 
Duncan Yes  go  on twitter or  Facebook   of MOXY  and than you can  open it . Cheers
dclarke

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 6
 #8 
Thanks Juerg, found it.
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #9 
Question ?
 Why  should people  who take nitrates    due to cardiac  problems not  take  Viagra  or if they take it    what could happen.
 Same question to beet  juice. So follow up  question we  discussed . What is in this  people the limiter.?

We have  in   eays term  2 groups  where  vasodilatation  may not eb a good  idea  to  push  for.
 What  2 groups.
 

Disparity in regional and systemic circulatory capacities: do they affect the regulation of the circulation?

Calbet JA, Joyner MJ.

Author information

  • Department of Physical Education, University of Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Campus Universitario de Tafira s/n, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Spain. lopezcalbet@gmail.com

Abstract

In this review we integrate ideas about regional and systemic circulatory capacities and the balance between skeletal muscle blood flow and cardiac output during heavy exercise in humans. In the first part of the review we discuss issues related to the pumping capacity of the heart and the vasodilator capacity of skeletal muscle. The issue is that skeletal muscle has a vast capacity to vasodilate during exercise [approximately 300 mL (100 g)(-1) min(-1)], but the pumping capacity of the human heart is limited to 20-25 L min(-1) in untrained subjects and approximately 35 L min(-1) in elite endurance athletes. This means that when more than 7-10 kg of muscle is active during heavy exercise, perfusion of the contracting muscles must be limited or mean arterial pressure will fall. In the second part of the review we emphasize that there is an interplay between sympathetic vasoconstriction and metabolic vasodilation that limits blood flow to contracting muscles to maintain mean arterial pressure. Vasoconstriction in larger vessels continues while constriction in smaller vessels is blunted permitting total muscle blood flow to be limited but distributed more optimally. This interplay between sympathetic constriction and metabolic dilation during heavy whole-body exercise is likely responsible for the very high levels of oxygen extraction seen in contracting skeletal muscle.
It also explains why infusing vasodilators in the contracting muscles does not increase oxygen uptake in the muscle.
Finally, when approximately 80% of cardiac output is directed towards contracting skeletal muscle modest vasoconstriction in the active muscles can evoke marked changes in arterial pressure.

Than  there is one  section  we never  talk in sport . Risk  and health.  it is  the  question of   continuous    does of  Nitrate  or in specific  in studies of   nitro glycerine

Continuous dose of nitroglycerin increases severity of heart attacks, study shows ??? 

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter - Quick-counter.net