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kptrzk

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 #1 

image (1).png I didn't go until failure but just until I knew I was over threshold (400watts was final 5 min step). Hb seems to do some strange patterns until 400w. SmO2 on the two 360w and 400w intervals drop linearly. Not sure meaning there...
Basically I need some help to identify anything from this data?  😉

Appreciate it!


MoxyPhysiology

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 #2 
Greetings @kptrzk. Overall this looks like you did a solid job on selecting the necessary wattage for each portion of the 5-1-5 test. During the first stage of the test (~200w) you can see increases in SmO2 along with increases in tHb, this indicates that your body is over delivering oxygen to the working muscle, this is what we look for in a proper warm-up.

Throughout the test at the beginning of each interval tHb goes down, and either increases or remains relatively stable, this is an indication of a compression response followed by a venous occlusion later in the test when tHb levels start to rise. 

Finally, SmO2 can do three things in response to a stimulus:
1) it can rise linearly, meaning your body is delivering more oxygen than the muscle is using (i.e. stage 1a and 1b).
2) it can remain relatively stable, meaning that your the area being monitored has reached an oxygen utilization steady state (i.e. stage 2a, 2b, 3a, and most of 3b)
3) it can decrease linearly, meaning that your body is consuming more oxygen than can be delivered, this typically means you are over metabolic threshold and will only be able to maintain this power output for a finite amount of time (i.e. stage 4a 4b, 5a).

Altogether, this data indicates a cardiac limitation. Most trained athletes will see either a pulmonary or cardiac limitation which means that the ability of your heart to deliver oxygen is the greatest limiting factor to your physiology, currently. In order to address this, completing workouts where you first allow heart rate to rise, then dropping the hammer, like slow build hill climbs should be sufficient. 


kptrzk

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 #3 

Thank you for your detailed response - very interesting and insightful.

Quote:
"this is an indication of a compression response followed by a venous occlusion later in the test when tHb levels start to rise."

I've read through several posts with the above detailed however, I don't quite understand this concept and how it affects performance. If so, could you explain?

Also, after reading your assessment analysis I attempted a pyramid set last night to stimulate a cardiac limitation response and below was the outcome of the main set:
9419ride.jpgHR was very low for this type of workout. Would typically see over 173 once into threshold range. Nasal breathing was done entirely until after threshold block (nose full of sweat!) Also had beet juice beforehand. 

Warmup

MAIN SET:
4min @ 300w
4min @ 320w
4min @ 340w
4min @ 360w
4min @ 388w
4min @ 360w
4min @ 340w
4min @ 320w
4min @ 300w 

Once again, appreciate your time and response. This new data is very exciting!


bobbyjobling

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 #4 
You should try placing the sensor on a non involved muscle like the deltoid during 515. That would give you a better indication of cardiovascular or respiratory limitations.
MoxyPhysiology

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 #5 
@kptrzk the different occlusion trends give an idea of how hard your muscle is contracting and, in turn, what that is doing to oxygenation levels. By knowing when and where compression, venous, or arterial occlusion responses are occurring you can get an idea of the muscle oxygen response your muscle is experiencing. Namely, when you have a compression response this is typically at low workloads and allows for hyper-oxygenation to occur. During a venous occlusion blood volume rises but typically with a decrease in SmO2 due to shifting oxy- hemoglobin dissociation curves because of a build up of metabolites. Once an arterial occlusion occurs, meaning you are contracting hard enough to limit blood flow in or out, there is a finite amount of oxygen that can be accessed, therefore there is only a small amount of time this strength of contraction can be maintained. 

Regarding your workout, This seems to be a good workout for a cardiac limitation. The work rate may not have been hard enough to elicit the heart rate necessary. How were you feeling during the workout? Was the workload hard or easy as you approached the top of the pyramid? As opposed to doing a pyramid, it might have been better to work up to almost 400w then maintain that as long as possible. This should result in very low SmO2 and higher heart rate while also maintaining a higher tHb.  
ryinc

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 #6 
Let me just say that if the forum continues to get this type of input from MoxyPhysiology on other cases with clear discussion of limiter and training ideas it will be very active again soon! Thank you for this, snd for sharing the case.
MoxyPhysiology

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 #7 
@ryinc I am glad you find this information useful! My goal is to facilitate these discussions and provide actionable input where I can, so please do not hesitate to ask questions or start other discussion threads.  
Kim

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 #8 
I'm a little late to respond but I also appreciate the responses from MoxyPhysiology! 
kptrzk

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Posts: 12
 #9 

Regarding the Cardiac Limitation: I'm curious to know how/why you came to that conclusion.

Looking at the rising THb trends after the initial compression - could you help me interpret that concept please? And conversely if a dropping THb for the entire interval were to occur.

Currently unable to wrap my mind around this concept in a simplistic manner. Each time I think I understand it my logic falls apart.

Appreciate the help!

Kim

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 #10 
If you you look at the thb peaks during rest in last intervals of the workout when intensity is highest, you see that the peaks have a decreasing trend. This indicates that your body has started to redistribute blood flow to vital organs. If you had also monitored the deltoid, you probably would have seen a decrease in the rest peaks just before they occurred in the RF or VL (or wherever you monitored). These trends indicate a cardiac limitation.
kptrzk

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 #11 
Understood. 

What trends generally would point to a respiratory limitation? 

Is there a case where you would see very little SmO2 desaturation (<20% range from peak to bottom) and the athlete still be well developed and not have a muscular utilization limitation?

Thanks!
Kim

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 #12 
With a pulmonary limitation, you will see the opposite. You’ll see that those resting peaks increase because the body can afford adequate blood flow to the the working muscles and the vital organs (and deltoid if you had monitored).

The severity of a utilization limitation differs in different athletes with this limitation. Some can’t desaturate below 80% even when they are running/riding to failure. Others can desaturate to 30-40%, which still shows potential but not as severe as the first athlete. Did that answer your second question?
kptrzk

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 #13 

Interesting. Yes that answered the question, thank you!

So, I actually went and retested yesterday (doing the traditional 5-1-5 starting at 100w) and saw that towards the end if the test, THb peaks are flat across the board.

Test went rather long, nearly 2 hrs and full graph makes it difficult to see lines.

So below the test is split into a few images. Do you see different trends from the initial assessment in the 1st post? Would you reclassify limitation based on this?

Full
11.21.19 Assessment Full.jpg

0-50min
11.21.19 Assessment 0-50min.jpg 
  
50-90min

11.21.19 Assessment 50-90min.jpg 

90-finish
11.21.19 Assessment 90-fin.jpg 
I've also noticed these tail SmO2 drops I seem to have at larger power intervals. Basically after I let off the gas SmO2 plummets. I've noticed this happens at wattages over 300 but not always. Pretty curious to me. 


Kim

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 #14 
That data does paint a different picture than the first assessment. 

Regarding the drop in Sm02 just as the load ends, do you always rest in the same position? For example, you might try alternating where your L and R legs rest. If the left leg rests in the "up position," try resting it the down position during every other rest period. Does that make sense? I work with runners, but I sometimes see this if they jump off the treadmill when the load ends. I'm careful about them ending the load gently so that I don't see any big drops in SmO2.

On the other hand, when I control their transition from intense running to rest and I still see that drop in SmO2, then I feel more confident that I'm looking at a delay in SmO2 rebound. This points to a respiratory limitation. The longer the delay, the bigger the limitation. 

The stable tHb rest peaks also point to adequate blood flow even during high loads. Although, if you look closely, they peak in the middle of the assessment and never quite reach those peaks again, so that is something to consider. 

If you were my athlete, I would also want to see further desaturation at the highest intensities. There is good potential there! 

I would also want you to work on your warm up. What is the best warm up for you to achieve the highest possible SmO2? Your range is relatively small in this assessment in terms of your highest and lowest SmO2. 

Are you using a breathing tool? 
Kim

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 #15 
One more thought.... at some point, try to set the intensities so that you have a 50-60 min assessment instead. 
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