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Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #1 
I   like to get  one last    try on this  very important  question  sent on the forum by Mark.
 I got  some mails  but nothing really which  we  can discuss  abut. So  I decided  to get the question to my  fitness  " experts" grade  11 and 12 student  and we  where looking for  a  client  , who was ready to     get involved.
  Here once more the   question by Mark:

"Maybe I will put this another way.

If a cyclist wears a Moxy for each ride what
meaningful
metrics can be automatically extracted from the data to help track progress?

This is outside of the lab and away from any controlled protocol. Just every time they go on a training ride. "
 

Here the task:
 1. We  found  a  medical retired  professional  lady , ready to start  working out  and  mainly start with endurance  activities.
 So we started out  with  suggesting  her to take up  biking.
 Still snow  so the first  weeks  she will do it inside, but as soon as possible outside  and than likes  to add roller  skating  and hiking.
2. Task was that we give her a  power meter option  ( wattage )  and a MOXY, as  suggested in Marks  question.
2.2  We  did no testing or anything. Just introduced the 2   equipment so she  can use it in and  outside  for her  workouts    she likes  to choose ( Biking, walking  and  roller blade).

 
This is outside of the lab and away from any controlled protocol. Just every time they go on a training ride. "


3.Introduction  of  the wattage  meter:
 ( Please  as I am NOT a wattage  meter expert  I may need  and hope  for additional feedback as   we may have  forgotten  some  info's  a  wattage meter  can give.)
 In short. The wattage meter  will show  the  current  power you produce as you bike. We  can see live   feedback   and we  can see average  as well if   needed.
 If the number in wattage goes  up that means  you push a higher intensity  and if wattage  numbers go  down you seem to push less intensity. If  the wattage  is relative stable with some     up and  some small downs you maintain fixed  performance.
 Now here you go  and have  fun  for  a  60 min workout. Now  clients  immediate  question before  going out ?
What wattage  should  I see  and what does that mean. ?
 Our  answer : we  do not known , you just  have to use the  information you can see  and follow  what they  hopefully meaning full  give you as a live feedback ?
Help wattage coaches what  do we miss  with what we  are  allowed  to use   and say.?
Now  before she left on the indoor trainer  for a  60 min ride  she  asked. How  do  I use this  for    hiking  and  roller blading, if  I would buy that  equipment ?



4.Intro  MOXY  an live feedback on a   cell phone  size  tablets  so it can be mounted on her bike  as a cell phone  with  GPS  so live feedback  nice  big  of SmO2  and if needed  of  tHb.
What  is MOXY telling  you , using just SmO2.
 If Smo2  goes up  you  have  an intensity you delivery more  O2  than you  use  so you can go  for a very long time  and will not severely stress in the 60 min any system  but you bum from the  saddle.
If SmO2 is  relative flat  you reached  a balanced intensity , where you  will delivery  enough O2   so you cover  just optimal   the  O2  you need. This is  what you try to achieve.
 If SmO2  drops you are  somewhat too intense  so  once you see that you have  to reduce the  intensity  you bike  and  try to either  stabilize back to flat or  if  you slow too much down you will see  again an increase in SmO2  than you can gently increase  intensity again to find the "Flat  " Smo2  balance.
. The goal is to   see first and increase    and  than  a  flat  SmO2  . Once you are flat  you  just keep this  flat  going and adjust the   intensity accordingly.
 Q: How  fast do I start. Our  answer  . it is up to you ?
 And of she  went.

 Now  our  or better my question back.
 Which  equipment do you think the students  and the client  thinks  will give  m much more meaningful feedback  when she  would use this daily ?
 Any critical feedback is welcome  as long we  go  with Marks  suggestion  above.



.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
Ups  got a fast email respond non that. Question  do you have  power meter graph  and than  a  MOXY graph.
 
Okay here we go :
Power meter  printout  of a  workout.  Now below  is  wattage   graph  from a  reader so  we can't  be blamed  to manipulate  anything. So need help on what  meaningfully information we  can read out of this workout  ( what did we stressed  , where is the optimal intensity , where is it too easy  , too hard   , perfect.
 watt graph road.jpg
  Now below  the MOXY info  form our client and we had the moxy on a  relative  minimal involved  muscle    arm muscle.
barb arm tri 1 st wk.jpg 
Now  to be  fair  exactly the same  questions

 So need help on what meaningfully information we can read out of this workout ( what did we stressed , where is the optimal intensity , where is it too easy , too hard , perfect.
 



Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Now  if  we like that  this client  has  some " metrics  than this is our solution.
 She  can use a HR monitor  and her power meter but MOXY will guide   her intensity to have  meaningfully outcome  so  she can use indirect  markers  like her HR  and her power output  to see next time, whether she or he e  is  better  same  or  worse  so direct feedback on progress.
 Here  what we  did.
 10 min easy  ride   with the task  to  ride  and an  find  an intensity  so SmO2  will increase.Look at HR  and wattage  as this is happening
 If that is  achieved , a steady increase in  SmO2 , than  increase intensity  somewhat  and maintain again the same  trend  increase if still possible  SmO2 or   see, whether you reach  a flat  SmO2  Look at HR  and wattage. If  achieved  stable   SmO2   than increase again a little bit   and try  to drop SmO2    first but than reach again a  flat  SmO2. . If that is achieved  increase again  and  try to see,, whether you can reach an intensity which  show a  slowly decline of SmO2. In that stage  you  most likely will see a steady increase in HR despite a  stable wattage.
 Now you have a  very fast intensity level  creation of a  TIP  easy done training intensity profile. Now  task. Work out in the ARI    so in an intensity , where delivery clearly  can keep up and even  is more than utilization. Take HR  or wattage  you had and now  try to create  in this low intensity a  desaturation stimulation by using MOXY feedback  but stay a fixed  ARI Wattage
. Here  what you do ??????



example zoning plus wokrout.jpg

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 
Hmm I am still  looking  for feed backs  on meaningful use  of  Wattage??
 The  respond  even  with emails is very slow.
 So here  what we  do. We  go  and search  for it to fond a wattage  coach  thinking outside  the box  or  at least trying  to see, whether  the energy delivery  and utilization  can be combined  with  Watt, or perhaps  even in some  great moment  will admit , that  the Physiological  situation of a  cyclist will dictate the wattage  who  can be meaningful used  and not the other side  around.

 Here  from  an incredible great Blog :

 http://cyclingcenterdallas.com/service/blog

Here some very interesting statements    and information  and I love, that they try it out  on their own terms  and  are not  a  follower of our  forum   or any Gospel. It needs a critical  brain  but  an open mind  to   understand, that combining different options  may destroy a gospel  but opens  areal world.

 In modern training the   workouts  are controlled by physiological parameters  and not  by outside   organizational  options like  time  and  meter  an wattage. This objective  information  are helping  to see , what we  meaningfully change in the abilities  to push more or less performance  on one or  another  day.
 Here  form the great BLOG

by 

Bike Coach Wharton 

Cycling Center Dallas


 Whatt does it all mean? Well, I can't emphasize it enough, but I REALLY believe that
this is telling us good information about proper warm up, proper interval dosing, and psychosomatically, proper ways to get the most out of every workout, and interval. I LOVE wattage and power meters, but the power meter is the LAST BIT of information you're going to get, because it's OUTSIDE the body

. It's the RESULT of the brain telling the muscles to GO, and the heart responding after a period of time. IF we had just relied on HR, well, we'd be missing a bit of the picture. IF we just used watts, or cadence, or energy expenditure, it's all just slices of a pie.

But NOW, we've got ANOTHER PIECE OF INFORMATION! TWO, REALLY! And we just
t used that information to help a fatigued cyclist properly warm up, properly dose his intervals, and properly approach those intervals once he had the confidence of knowing that he was READY. 

Thanks Mr. Wharton  for this  super  short  and  very great  summary  of ECGM  and physiological feed backs  to  control load  , recovery  and  many more ideas.

And here  one  more short  section but the best is 

I'm starting to believe that this little product is going to really help my athletes and myself as we continue to focus on ways to help THEM improve their performance through proper intensity. Moxy allows me to see what's going on intrinsically, while wattage reveals what's going on extrinsically. If we get consistent wattage results, but SmO2 begins to drop, well, I read that as strain that is adequate to affect a response from the body. But if it's static or within a range, well, then we need to test, because the subject has adapted to the load. The result? MORE POWER and more POWER-TO-WEIGHT. 

This device could be revolutionary. Let's see what else it can tell us over the next several months! If you're interested, Moxy monitors can be purchased through Cycling Center Dallas for $1000, and we'll help you with

 

 Go  to  http://cyclingcenterdallas.com/service/blog
Or even better  if you are close  to one of this center as a cyclist  go in  and see  for yourself. Get a  physiological assessment  done  with MOXY  and  wattage , no blood no mask  no  nothing just 2  MOXY's  and an open  mind  and when  they add the limiter  and compensator  information to it they are a  Cycling center  who  This device could be revolutionary  do exactly  that.

Sometimes  It only needs  a  short moment  and  an idea to try it on your own  and it can open many  great  ideas.
 

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #5 
wowww, this time  a got many reactions. Did  the cycling community  woke  up ( Smile )
 I not even like to start the discussion on wattage versus  HR  versus MOXY  as there is no discussion here. It is  simply  an additional  real time feedback  with the advantage  to show us , when we  can use wattage as a great guide of a  workout  but how  physiological reaction may change  some  training ideas or plans. Just a  few  sports  have the   great  opportunity to  have a  objective  easy to use  performance information like  biking  or  rowing  for  example. So the beauty in this sports  is, that when you   think you need to achieve a certain wattage  you can do this  still by  using wattage  as the loading  guide  but use MOXY  as the  decision maker on the  duration of the load  and or the   recovery in between loads.
 If  you still like  to  have a fixed  time as a target  you can even use  this  and if you  have even a  fix recovery time in mind you can use this as well.
 What  you no  get  form moxy is a feedback , whether your 10  sets  of 3 min loads  can be done  with the target  power in mind  or not, as well you will see how you may adjust the energy supply  for the target  wattage  and what  finally may limit the ability to finish the planned  10 sets. So  with MOXY you  can live  see,  when it would be time  to either stop the   workout  or increase the   recovery time in between as you can see live a change in the physiological reaction  and you  even can  predict in many cases, that the next set  can't  be done for example oxygen-dependent only. You as well can see, whether the  energy  may come  just locally now as you may have  an arterial occlusion or  you may see, that  SmO2  drops  due to a venous occlusion  and an O2  disscurve shift to the  right  and therefor  an increase in tHb  not  due to recovery and better blood flow  but rather due  to  limited b blood  flow ( outflow )
  So  for  all keen cyclist  go to the suggested website  and see . Here another great  section of the incredible nicely written BLOG  section


What's the moral of the story? 

Sometimes, the
wattage doesn't give us the complete picture. Having onscreen Muscle Oxygen and ThB gives the smart coach an extra tool to determine what's best for a cyclist on any given day. In this case, we were able to more quickly determine that Mike's fasting from the night before could lead to a failed workout. Had we been using wattage alone, we may have collectively ended up beating our heads against a wall as we tried harder and harder to accomplish something that just wasn't feasible. Instead, we rectified it immediately, got him fed, watered, and salted, and he was actually able to IMPROVE the quality of his intervals, and later, ACHIEVE THE GOALS SET OUT FOR HIM, without throwing in the towel. His Muscle Oxygen range helped him get the proper training dose, in conjunction with wattage, and the ThB values gave us a really good clue about how much was in the tank, and how quickly it was depleted



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