Sign up Latest Topics

  Author   Comment   Page 2 of 2      Prev   1   2
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Here just  for  S.M  as a  small " test"
  for the rest  of the reader  something to think about.
  S.M. Read the last  e mail you got  from Andri  and I.
 Remember the reaction you look   to make a difference between a  compression decompression reaction in O2Hb  and HHb  and than the reaction you expect  when you create a     flow reduction  with  a trend to wards  venous occlusion.
  Than last but not least you  can go   after a venous occlusion to an arterial occlusions  what would you expect there   ?
 Here  a   print  from a  test I got in today , where  you have  both  in one single reaction due to the fact   of the  activity of this client.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: comp_and_decomp_and_ven_occl.jpg, Views: 18, Size: 56.39 KB 


Development Team Member
Posts: 65
So I understand we are trying to determine if this is a compression or an occlusion.  If it is a compression we will have an increase in tHb as well as O2Hb.  If it is an occlusion there is an increase in blood volume as well as a higher concentration of CO2 in the blood therefore an increase in HHb.

Venous occlusion: increase in tHb, increase in HHb.
Arterial occlusion: increase in HHb, decrease in O2Hb, no change in tHb.
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
S.M. close  one part is great :
  Venous occlusion means  blood comes in  nothing goes out  so we have  an increase in tHb    for sure.
 Now it depends, whether the muscle in the occluded area is  just using resting  metabolic demand or  whether the muscle is actually working . . If it is  just resting than   HHb gos up as he uses  O2   so more  Hb  are as well not loaded, but tHb goes up as well as he gets  new loaded   Hb in.  See  classical pick   from Artinis script.
Pic 1 
On the other hand  ,arterial occlusion means  nothing   is coming in and nothing is going out  so tHb  stable but  in any case, whether it is a  resting assessment or under load  HHb  will go up and O2Hb  will go down, it is just a question how fast   depending on O2  demand.
See Pic 2 
Now here, where  practical application    are different than  lab testing.
  If  we look  the reaction under the MOXY we   have a different    situation , than when we occlude  the  upper arm  and have the moxy   on the forearm but we do nothing but observation of the reaction of the occlusion.
  If we  as well contract the muscle but we do not  have an occlusion on the upper arm we create   compression  first and foremost due to the muscle activity.
  so we  squeeze the blood vessels  due to contraction  so similar as you stand on  garden hose   so you  push watter in 2 directions depending on the pressure  and the  compression.
    so tHb under the moxy ( under your load  decreases  first . Some water will move out  and some water will be pushed  back ( again depending on the pressure towards the  compression.
 Once you go off the hose  you have an accordingly reaction.
 So  compression creates tHb  going down.
 If the compression keeps increasing you reach first venous   pressure limitation and you will see a venous occlusion so  subsequent  an increase in tHb  and if  compression keeps climbing you can reach arterial pressure  and a   flat  tHb  now.
 Depending on the activity level you will have under arterial occlusion allways a HHb  up and a O2 Hb down.
 Under venous occlusion you   can have   HHb going up as usual  but very rapidly  ans O2Hb drops  and this is unusual  under only occlusion tests.
 If the inflow of O2  is  lower than the utilization O2Hb will drop as well despite  an increase in tHb.
 Hope this makes sense  .
 Now last  to "confuse" more.
 I can  have a compression   and tHb  drops but now instead of increasing the compression further I may release a little bit  and now  I have an increase in tHb  as I will get more   blood going again.
 This  looks on tHb like a venous occlusion but under load   if it is a venous occlusion  we see tHb up  and  HHb up  steep  and  O2Hb  down.
  If we  have a  release of a compression ( decompression  [wink] we   reduced the  load  and the need of  O2   so we see an increase in tHb     and a  increase in O2Hb    and  a less step increase in HHb .

 Now here we go into  very interesting areas  and you can see, where the MOXY is a tool for users by guiding them  with just SmO2  information and HR  and  performance. But you as a coach  and  test center owner  will be able to go into much deeper details  and once you combine with the old  VO2  equipment yous see  how we  come up with the idea of LIMITER  and compensator.
 Hope this makes  sens.
 Go to interval and I  show some picture for you for   brain workouts   and you will get it very fast.  Same  for some  of the many mails  I am getting now  for  very interesting discussions.  So you can as well see, how  same  wattage or loads can create very different stimuli's depending on the above explained reactions.  Same  athlete different  strenght due to  training  from the day before  and you may  end up instead of a compression decompression with a compression   veneous occlusion  so very different out come   with the same  load  in 2 days  apart.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Posts: 1,530
Here a feedback to a discussion  S.M  and Andri  seem to have n a  specific case of a test.
I have no very close inside  but the question seems to be,  where and how  we would  do a assessment with  a "beginner" on a treadmill.
  There is a fundamental difference between walking and running   in the way  we use  and ask  for energy.
 You could  kind of  compare it with being on a bike and you test in sitting position versus a full assessment out  of the saddle.
 By the way this 2 examples  are great example, when  looking at the idea of VO2  Max.
 You can try to walk somebody to the limit  and than  ask to run  and VO2  max will change. You can do a test on the bike and when we reach the  by now  " famous" VO2  max you ask the  person to go out of the saddle.
 Try it and sent us the VO2   max  values ????
Back now. If you have a client  , who may just barely be able to jog  and you decide to do an assessment  make a  complete walking assessment.
 Start   with easy walking  and increase  to a brisk  but comfortable  walking speed.
  than  you fix this speed  and now increase  incline.
 True , we as well change the  muscle chains  in here but much less , than when  actually changing from  walk to run.
 There is a critical economic  speed for walking  and than as you increase ,it changes  to a very inefficient  walking  and the opposite , you may have a very inefficient  slow jog    and than your get for a while  more efficient  and than  again  run into trouble.
  Here  some ideas on how  you can use  NIRS in this cases  just as some pictures  from some case studies.
 Pic  1  is a comparison of  VO2   for walk and run
  Pic 2  shows   a case study  where we had a fixed speed  but changed   always from running to walking first long intervals  , than short intervals. just look  at the pic  and traces and make  your own   short story.
  Pic  3  is a 5/1/5 test  with NIRS  and it shows  yellow tHb   and  it shows tHb  on 2 different depth  situations. The  skinny  yellow line is  more surface  skin area  the  thick yellow line is in a deeper   layer.  You can see  very nicely where this client shifted  from walk to run. He had no order what to do just using "feeling'  whether he  would like  to walk or run.
 When doing and assessment try to stay as  much as possible to the activity you like to assess  in an  endurance 5/1/5  assessement.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: run_walk.jpg, Views: 16, Size: 25.03 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: complete_60_min_w_r.jpg, Views: 17, Size: 84.88 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: ipahd_2.JPG, Views: 17, Size: 71.72 KB 

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter -