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xcskier

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Posts: 46
 #1 
I have done another cross-country skiing assessment this time
doing double-poling only. For non-skiers, double poling is a
technique where you only use poles (no legs). So you only use your
upper body and mainly core:


What's interesting is that despite your legs really not doing
much work, you feel intense burn in your legs.

Note that because I am only using my upper body, I am using less 
muscles and my heart rate is about 10 beats lower than it would
be if I were using skating technique.

I used the same protocol as before (no warm up):
8 min at HR 100
8 min at HR 115
8 min at HR 130
8 min at HR 145
8 min at HR 160
8 min at HR 170 (but I barely was able to get there a the very end)

At the end of the assessment, I continued with a couple interval and 
2-3 all out max sprints.

I had two sensors, one of right tricep and one on right LV. The terrain was 
perfectly flat (skiing on a lake), so there was much less variation due to
terrain than in my original skiing assessment. Here are the plots:

doublepolingHR.png 

  doublepolingLV.png  doublepolingTricep.png 
CSV files are attached. Note that there's missing data when one of the sensor 
stopped recording.

 
Attached Files
csv Jan19-LV.csv (88.75 KB, 5 views)
csv Jan19-Triceps.csv (85.33 KB, 5 views)

sebo2000

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 #2 
Thanks for sharing XCskier, this is interesting to see how your overworked triceps will affect the workout.

I looked at the csv files and it seems they only have data from 0:40min onward.

The initial assessment part is not there in both files, it only has last step 8 min at HR 170


Capture.JPG 

xcskier

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Posts: 46
 #3 
I looked at the csv and the data for the entire session is there.
The exception is the tricpes data where there's missing data 
(Moxy was not recording) for about 3 minutes.

I have done three assessments so far for three different sports
and they all felt very different.

One of the things that I find interesting is that there's not much
desaturation in my muscles, my heart rate is about 15 beats
below my max heart rate and yet I can't go any faster.

Legs are not doing much work and as expected there's not much 
desaturation. In my rowing test, legs went below 10%. And yet,
I felt lots of "burn" in my legs.
sebo2000

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Posts: 227
 #4 
Sorry my excel cut first part from VL data, this time I did 2 separate charts and adjusted the time and placed on top of each other, yes all data is there, now properly aligned, I removed first few seconds from LV to match with Tri

Light colors are from Moxy on VL and , solid colors are from Tri
I wish I could zoom in some how in the place where tHb starts to increase in both places, but excel does not give me that ability. I used 5s Avg trend line to eliminate the noise.
It seems your legs were trying to help twice in last effort, I'm looking at the 2 SmO2 spikes in the lap 6.




Capture2.JPG 

juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #5 
Before  I  like to come back with the NIRS feedback on this great post  I like to give some  loud  thoughts   to 
 For non-skiers, double poling is a 
technique where you only use poles (no legs). So you only use your 
upper body and mainly core:

Sometimes  it is  very valuable to  hear feedbakcs  from non  skiers  or  out of the sport people  to get a different  idea  and view. Same here.
So  go back to the great you tube  we have on here.
 Than cover up  the  top  part  so about pelvic  crest  or belly button and up on the screen  so you only see the legs  and  describe  here  what the no legs   do n motion. Even better  do the  same  motion  as you watch  the  video  and  than give some feedback . 
 
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #6 
Too bad, 
I was hoping to get some feedback on this  topic  from somewhere  so we  could move forward  to look at this datas  in a much deeper  way  as they are very interesting. Let's give it some more days  before we  move on toss it  of  follow  up with more  ideas.
jschiltz

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Posts: 49
 #7 
The double pole exercise still works the legs, but only in a single plane of motion - similar to a squat, pedaling, etc.   You are using your legs to lift yourself up so you can again use the combination of body weight and arms to push the poles down and back again.

leg muscle use would likely be similar to mtb when negotiating through a technical/rocky area with limited pedaling but using the legs to absorb impacts and bumps.
sebo2000

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Posts: 227
 #8 
  

I will only comment what I potentially see is happening. Up to my selection 1 on pic below we can see the same SMo2 and tHb trend for both places, I guess those are first 4 intervals. Triceps Smo2 goes down as this muscle performing all the work, smo2 on Vastus Lateralis also drops but that might be due to blood going to where it is needed which is Triceps, tHb downtrend.

Then in place selected by #1 triceps SmO2 drops quite a lot, CO2 is increasing, causing vasodilation increasing tHb, this looks like systemic change, since it affects both VL and tri. What is interesting VL is not used, but has additional blood volume (increased tHb) and because of that SmO2 on VL is increasing…

 

It looks like VL gets much better recovery during harder efforts when double pulling. If I would want to let my legs rest when double pooling, doing it at higher intensity would make more sense. (Somebody might say; resting at higher intensity doesn’t really make sense…)

 

If we would add legs to this exercise, tHb would be still going up due to increased CO2, but Smo2 would quickly go down in both places, indicating respiratory delivery limitation. It could be that adding legs we would extend the process since Tri would not be overloaded immediately, on another hand Tri is relatively small in comparison to leg muscles, so it would not be really extended by a lot)

 

I totally understand if I got beginning incorrect, the rest is totally incorrect [smile]


Capture2.JPG 


juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #9 
Jason , absolutely
Look the comment  from  the   contributor.

 What's interesting is that despite your legs really not doing 
much work, you feel intense burn in your legs.

Are  they doing nothing ? and  why  the  possible burning. What  muscle  does he use  to   move   center of gravity up  and what if  he  drops  down ?

Note that because I am only using my upper body, I am using less 
muscles and my heart rate is about 10 beats lower than it would
be if I were using skating technique.

Is he really using  "only " the upper body.
 What is the  %  of legs muscles  to  possibly  arm muscles  and who  would demand  more   blood. ?
 How  is  he actually able to ski  standing on his legs  when not using his legs. ?? Smile 

 It is one of the most interesting miss conceptions in so many sports  what is  use  and how  . ? We  discuss this  on here all the time in cycling. Why  would we  take  mainly VL  for an assessment.  Because  somewhere  somebody in the research community decided  to  do a study on VL and bang we are stuck on that. 
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