Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #1 
It is  an ongoing question mailed  to me  and we had it  somewhere answered on
here but I love to  give  again  some feedback  for the many new  MOXY users. As  well I hope to get some  help and ideas  from already  aged  MOXY users  on what they have  found   when using  the MOXY  for their special ideas.

  Strength workouts:
Two categories:
 a) relative  isolated  strength workout: like a  biceps  curl , a  leg curl , a  shoulder press,  a bench press. Fix it on the main muscle if you have one MOXY and if you have two moxy's  fixed the second  one on the next " in line "  muscle in a  muscle sling  .

Example.
Hip extension  for  runners on a  leg  curl  bench. I use this example not because I like tit  but because I got  4 mails  now  asking for placement in this type  of  workouts. Now this is  my personal opinion.
 I think it is a  very poor   exercise  choice but  yes it is done  every winter season  from many many runners.
. 1. It is  an open chain exercises  so not smart  form that point.
 2. It is  if it is  done very  wrong  for a running  coordination  situation.
 So here the picture  and placement of  MOXY's. If you have one only than  you do it on the gluteal ( helps you to  not only guide the  duration of the load  but as well the recovery and most important the  dysbalance  risk.If you have 2  than you add hamstrings as you now  can test  for disharmonious.

hamstrings  curl.jpg

Short comment:

Idea is a  “ hamstrings” strength  workout Now in running  the hamstrings  are a  important part of  hip extension  and a less important part of the actual  knee flexion. ( Bad idea here any way as it is  an open chain   exercise .

 

 PROBLEM:

 They are  second in line  for hip extension  and  MAIN guy  is the gluteus  maximus as the hip extensor.

 So if you as a runner  do this workout you have to be sure you  do not create a  muscle disharmony  and a muscle dysbalance.

 Muscle disharmony : Is a situation, where you do not activate ( coordinate ) the proper   muscles  at the  proper  time.  In this example you like to activate  the gluteus  before the hamstrings.

 Muscle disbalance : Is a situation, where you activate   at the  wrong time the  antagonistic  muscle. So you  activate  the hip flexor ( iliopsoas  , when in fact you should  or still  have to use  the hip extensor  ( Gluteus  muscle )



Hope  you get the picture. Now this correction is  true  for   certain sports like running  but some sports  you do not like this correction at all. What sports  can that be ?

 Now  you have  placement  and for  any other  strength workout  that is the steps  of thoughts  when you look for placing.
 In many cases the placing of  MOXY is  close to the placing we use  since many years  for SEMG  guided  workouts. Same restrictions  apply here.  Now  once you have this set  you now  are a big step ahead of the older ideas.
 Now you can use  live  MOXY feed backs  to see, whether the type of load  you plan is really the   stimulus  you see  and therefor the weight you choose depends on the MOXY reactions as it does  when you choose a  speed  or wattage in an endurance sport.
 meaning you adjust  steady in the workout the  load  accordingly to your  muscles  reaction.
 So  different options.
 Functional stimulation  or structural adaptation.
  SmO2  will guide  the duration of the load . tHb  will guide the  intensity of the load. SmO2  will guide the rest in between loads.
 but tHb as well can help to guide the rest n between of the loads.
 tHb    trends  go very close  to SEMG relaxation trends.
 . Now as most now  know the SmO2  trend  ( recovery ) can be   lower  due to a  still high SEMG  ( so lower tHb  than baseline  ) and as such we have a higher resting  energy demand  so SmO2  takes longer to recover.

Strength workout  with complex   and  more involved  muscle groups.
  like  squatting.

 If your goal is    quadriceps  main muscle you have  a MOXY on the quadriceps.

squatting.jpg

here how it would look
squatting.jpg 2.jpg


and here potential questions when you compare  two athletes in your team  or over time a  change in the same athlete  do to the  training you planned.

squatting.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 
 Now the same ideas  apply  for load  and recovery like on a  single  or small  muscle group involved strength workout.
 BUT. In a   complex  workout you like as well  to see whether your load may  stay local in the  main muscle groups or whether you may in fact integrate the full system into the workout?.
 That's  when you add a  MOXY  to a  minimal  or  little involved muscle to see,  when you start to actually use the  non involved muscle  group to reduce  O2 and  delivery  there to maintain the main muscle groups  ( Hierarchies  of  energy  delivery  or  supply or need. 

3. Endurance sports: Clear advantage if you have 2  MOXY's  so one  on a main involved  muscle  group  and on on a  little involved  muscle group or  on the respiratory  muscle  intercostal 7- 8  or  6 - 7.

 Running.
 Quadriceps. Most common  vastus lateralis :Why? . hmm perhaps habbit.
 Perhaps    more should try  gluteal.
 Calf : Not optimal in the field  and  even on a treadmill.
 In the field  you often may change  from fore foot to middle foot  to heel strike  so   not very consistend.And on a treadmill most ill be  middle foot runners  even  if they may run heel strikers in the real world  due to the fact that the treadmill moves towards  you  and you have to learn to pace  as well as your leg goes back in any case whether you like it or not  so differnt  coordination in  some cases.

 Cycling.
 Same question. Vastus  laterlais  is the   main placing.
 Why. Hmm again most likely because  many studies  are done   with this placing.
 Is it smart ??
 well if you have flat  pedals, No cleats  like in many patients than it may be a good choise , as they only push. But you could as well move it on the rectus. You know the  activity you see will be  form a knee extension.
 In  good cyclists  you may have to think about the placing  on lateralis  and  rectus  as they have different activity patterns  when you have cleats. What happens over a longer assessment or  when you " fatigue " is, that you may  loose the nice  " round " pedal stroke  and you may  move  from  good  "pull up " to less or no pull up  as you  start to push only.
 So  if you  have the MOXY on the rectus  you will see much  more likley a  more drammatical drop in  SmO2  as long the technique is great  or you in fact may see a drop  with a follow up  plateau , when  he  or she starts  to change pedal stroke   coordination.
 On the lateralis  you at least have only  down push as a feedback.
 On the other side you can see, who you may be able to recover,  one or the other muscle by changing pedal stroke  and sit position  and this can be fun to watch  and to do.
 Calf in cycling.
 I hate to  say that  and it is my opinion. but calf  muscels  have  very littel influence on power developpment on a bike. We  could go on  and on.
So that is getting far too long here  let's; stop and rest.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #2 
Thanks  for the feed backs. I got a  surprising big numbers  of mails  from till now unknown people. All very great  and friendly  but critical  voices  to my  personal statement on placing  of MOXY on the calf  as a not optimal spot  for  many endurance  sports.
.  I may have to make some corrections here, as  fro example cross country skiing  is a great sport , where a moxy on the calf  can give some interesting feedback's  for example in a double  pole  workout.  and therefor the  quality  of the    motion  when  moving through the full  body motion.
. In  ballet    calf can be a very interesting  placing as well.
 So  I   used  may   limited  idea   and brain for sports like   cycling  and running  to  look at  MOXY reactions  and its   usefulness.
 Now  for  positive critics  , please  mount a MOXY  or any NIRS on a  calf  and look at the love feedback and you see how easy and fast trends  will change  when dropping the heel on the bike  or  pushing from your toes.
 We have  top  world  class  cyclists, where the calf  has a very very limited    activity  even in high loads  or  for example on FTP  loads. Than we have  some athletes ( more seen in MTB )  who  push  more  with the calf muscles.
 In running  we see as well both. Middle distance runners  have a much higher calf  activity  than long distance runners. ( except  top class runners.
 In fact many  popular runners  like many of us  ,actually have two  different running techniques. LSD  runs  are often done  with a heel strike  but interval loads  are often done as a middle  to fore  foot  striker. .So two techniques  , which often explain  some strange reactions in a   race  where the speed is suddenly somewhere between the LSD  loads  and the   middle distance  interval loads.
 Here an example of a top cyclist  with  a  control of   use of MOXY on his  calf. Perhaps we can get some  independent  test sent   and show on here  and even same person  trying different techniques.
CALF o2hB HHB.jpg 

 The  somewhat surprising  part for use  was, that when we increase the load ( 1200 time  section , we had the expected   drop in  tHb  due to a higher muscle compression but we actually had  an increase in O2 Hb  so SmO2 and than a  stable  O2 Hb  situation all  to the end.
. So  when we looked  in this case SEMG, he had a  slightly increased  SEMG  and than stabilized the  SEMG  activity in a  decent low  but higher than resting level.
 So there was some  activity but of little effort  and it seemed  the activity was just needed to stabilize his   ankle position in where he felt  comfortable so  slightly low level isometric  contraction ( lower tHb  but due to a higher CO  a better   loaded  SmO2 level.

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #3 
Okay here another  nice case  study  down on  left and right calf  muscle during a step test. The  key was  to try to see, whether  pedal technique  would actually be strong enough to have a very different feedback on  NIRS / MOXY data. In this  case  the athlete  tries  to  push on one side ( which side ?)  clearly with the  forefoot  on the pedal  and the other side he tried  to have more of a neutral  ( no heel drop  ) situation .  Here  the interesting  result   when looking at  O2HB  and HHb
Heel drop  can create  another interesting situation ????
BIASED.jpg

  it was  a  x   min step test ?. On the  one leg  you could argue  a  O2Hb  or a HHb  or a  SmO2  " threshold   at  what timing ?
  on the other  calf  you may have  some  bigger  issues  with that idea ?  Now  here  some fun    situations.
 We  could argue, that we created  a 5 min step test  where we  used  an involved   muscle  and a very little  or  non involved muscle.
 If   the  client has a delivery problem  form the systemic  delivery systems ( cardiac  and respiratory  systems  ) and we  push hard  so that the systemic  systems   are  getting to their limitation  as well we should  see a  last resource  of  O2  from the non involved side  as  an energy delivery  from a non involved  or minimal involved  body  areas  to the more involved  body area.
 Can you see this here  and where does it   take  place.?

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #4 
Short addition on here.
 I am getting  since  about 1  -2  month many emails  form many people I  do not know  and I  try  to  answer    as many emails  as possible. This  specific  question is  really answered  on here but I have  some ongoing mails  towards this  questions  and some  do some  strange  arguing  and pointing on a bias  situation  form my  side.
 Yes I AM BIASED , as I love  working  with NIRS  since many years  and now  can afford  with MOXY  10 NIRS  on one  client  where as before  one  would cost me  more . So lot's  more fun to play  with.
 The  discussion or  question is the calf  muscle in cycling . We  did  many  many  case  studies  to  try to find an optimal  placement  for  the different sports  and   the calf  was one of them.
 The calf muscle has  some very unique  features in  the way  of muscle fiber  situation as it is a very busy guy during  full day  of  work. So  STF , FTF  fiber  situation is  somewhat unique in the    calf  and a  such will show  somewhat unique  results  with NIRS  when compared  to other muscles. So  to  throw  my biased  situation out here a  short  summary  from a great study  , who looked  at break points in Vastus  l;lateralis  and  Calf.  But we  as well could look at Break point between Vastus  lateralis  and rectus  femoris  and will have a difference . As this local difference  are  just that local  , the risk is , when using a systemic  approach like VO2  max  or lactate  that we will have different Break points   at different muscles    and therefor  different  slopes in a not  existing lactate  threshold  curve. ( That's one biased situation  form my side. the fact , that we do NOT have a  lactate curve  which  will give meaningfully changes  AS IT IS A  STEADY INCREASE IN  VALUES  AN THE SLOPE  WILL DEPEND MORE ON THE  TEST PROTOCOL THAN ON A PHYSIOLOGICAL MEANINGFULLY FEEDBACK)  I am relative confident in this  but  never ever  completely  sure as I did  in the past over 100 '000+ ( hundred  thousand  lactate sampling).( True  just because somebody collects  stamps  does not   mean  that he has some highly valuables in there ) 15  years  Italian  and Spanish  bike  camp  with 2- 3000  bikers  every year and  app.  30 %  of this  cyclist we  had the privilege  to test  with Wattage, Lactate VO2  and  NIRS  and  as often as possible  Physio flow  as well.0 So  I had  a hard time to destroy my Gospel  and  dream  of a LT  or LBP  idea  as you may have to believe.
  Here the summary  of  an indenpendent   case  study.

Muscular differences in breakpoints of muscle oxygenation changes

Considering that the VL and GL were mostly studied independently in previous NIRS studies, we tested the VL and GL simultaneously to compare the two muscles, as the VL and GL are involved as a knee extensor and a knee flexor/ankle stabiliser, respectively, during cycling. The BpVL appeared earlier than the BpGL (p < 0.001), indicating that the oxygen supply-consumption balance in the VL was broken earlier than that in the GL during cycling IET. Furthermore, the BpVL had higher assessment ability (indicated by the higher R2a and lower RMSE, Table 2) for the aerobic capacity indices than the BpGL. One reason for the differences in the Bp of OI between the VL and GL might be the differences in anatomical and histochemical characteristics. Sufficient evidence has shown that the percentage of type I (slow twitch) fibres in the VL is lower than that in the GL (Edgerton et al., 1975; Houmard et al., 1998; Staron et al., 2000). Additionally, the activity of oxidative enzyme (citrate synthase) was previously reported to be lower in the VL than that in the GL (Houmard et al., 1998). Due to the lower percentage of type I fibres and lower activity of oxidative enzymes in the VL, the fast twitch fibres would be largely recruited earlier in the VL when the workload continuously increases, resulting in more anaerobic metabolism in the VL during moderate and high intensity exercise. The earlier accumulation of acidic metabolic substances in the VL might result in more H+ and a lower pH. Due to the Bohr effect, the accelerated dissociation of O2Hb would occur earlier in the VL due to the earlier accumulation of acidic metabolic substances; this result is indicated in our data by the earlier breaking up of the oxygen supply-consumption balance in the VL (BpVL). Another reason for the differences in the Bp of OI between VL and GL might be different usage patterns of the muscles during cycling
Roger

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 251
 #5 
Here's a link to the complete paper on GL and VL breakpoints.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3763305/
DanieleM

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 264
 #6 
I've attached the graph from a short cycling race.
I decided to put the moxy on the vastus medialis (10 cm from the knee) but I can see it didn't desaturates much.
Minimum 41% in very short moments. I would guess it was "seldomly" used.
Next time I will use the vastus lateralis as I've done in the past.
vm_race.png 
and the csv files

 
Attached Files
csv vmrace.csv (757.73 KB, 49 views)

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #7 



Thanks  Daniele.
 . Not surprising, when you look a SEMG  activity in cycling  and compare  all 4  quadriceps  heads, as well when you look activity  for this section.. The vastus medialis  is   working nice in the last +-  10 degrees  of a  full  leg extension  with  some people  somewhat different depending on  knee  ROM ( hyper extension.
. This is one reason why  the " classical '  quadriceps stretching does not help  for cyclists  with   patella femoral  syndrome  in fact it makes it  worse.
 Here  a  what to do  from a  pro cycling  site  and  it is   pretty much   a  please  do not do it  for me  when it comes  to  patellar   problems  as well as  to Achilles tendon problems.

 I know  I run myself into trouble  with that, but  always ready for a  fair  discussion   ( smile )

 By the way    use a SEMG  and or   both MOXY  and SEMG  and start looking at  stretching  for  timing when  and  what its it doing.

cycling stretch.jpg    Here  very short , It seems in the second half  of your race  something changes. ???
 Here  a  close look  how  the  medialis  reacted  in the first half  and second  half.

first part race  closer look.jpg


second  part race  closer look.jpg 


What can you see rad  out  for yourself. It seems there was a kind of a "pattern " in that race.???

DanieleM

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 264
 #8 
Hi Juerg, Yes it was a 10 lap race (each lap 6km,approx 9 minutes).
Regarding the race no major differences between first and second part (first 30 minutes average power a bit higher)
Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #9 

Thanks Daniele  with this in mind I like to go back and see, whether we  can get   1 lap  at a closer look  and see, what happened. Juerg

Juerg Feldmann

Fortiori Design LLC
Registered:
Posts: 1,530
 #10 
Daniele ,
 here a closer look at  first and  9 th lap in your race.
lap 1  and 89  overlap  smo2.jpg   Now  no clue  how the race  went  so I simple  read what SmO2   may  tell and  can be great  and  can be off. There seem to be  a kind  of  start loop  or stretch  before  I  could find a pattern  like lap  1  and lap  9  to overlap ???
 So above you see a  similar push  at the start of each lap, Very equal  SmO2  reactions  and would be fun to see whether we  have  similar  wattage  numbers there.. So an initial hard  push  and than in both laps  kind of settle in  so SmO2  recovers  in both laps. But than in lap  one  somewhat a  easier pace till 240  and than a  very easy  pace before   a hard load  with a  relaxation followed  with some loads  and recovery  and loads.
 On the other side in lap  9  a steady increase in load till short before 300 short recovery as a downhill or  relax  followed by a  few  loads  and  hard  at the end   with SmO2  drop to the lowest. We have in both laps  by  about  290  an increase in SmO2  which rather  could indicate a  downhill  section as it is unlikely  you relax    in a race  at the same place    the same  way  with exception it got  more or less forced  upon you.

 Now let's look  at tHb
lap 1  and 9  overlap  tHb.jpg 
Now  very different  as well. First  back to Ruuds   question of  tHb reaction. Here we did NOT change  location so for sure  same place  so it can be used as  an indication of change in blood  flow as we have  same baseline.
Different  options  why it is lower:
- More muscle tension  due to fatigue  so  compression overrules   CO
 - Blood volume shift  from  muscle to surface  skin  due to  body  core temperature  control.
 We   where able to demonstrate this nicely  when using Portamon and MOXY  at the same time.
 When  athletes  overheat  so shift of blood   to the skin  for temperature  control we see a  drop in SmO2  but an increase in TSI % as it is   calculated  different and we  have T1  and T3    feed backs  so   for skin. So  we see a  shift  from  depth  to  surface. When  we  use   cold or compression  stockings  we see a   increase in SmO2  in MOXY  as  blood gets'  pushed d deeper  and we see a  drop in TSI  %  in Portamon as  Blood      from surface  moves  deeper. So   not really different  information but different way  it shows  up.

geoff 2 zero start.JPG

 World  class  cyclist  with a  " warm up section  and than  hard section. Look at tHb  yellow. The  skinny yellow is    surface  feedback the thick one is   deeper  levels ( muscles.). See the cross over  from when he started to  work hard  and had  to  control  Core temperature  as a vital job  how  he shifted   Blood  flow to the surface. ??

Now  could be  similar  in Daniele's  ride. Interesting we  do NOT see the " downhill section.
 Now  if it was a  shift  for cooling  we may have no reaction therefor. ???  BUT  let's look at muscle tension.
 So here lap  1.

lap 1 thb smo2.jpg

Now look at Lap 9

lap 9 thb smo2.jpg

What  can you see  in  muscle compression difference if there is one ?  So  depending  what  conclusion you come  up with for you , you have 2  options  to improve the race result next  time :
 1. If it is    blood volume shift ??
 2. If it is  muscle strength ??
  Now  small challenge : Show the  wattage   information from this section and tell what you can meaningful read out of the wattage  difference  between  lap  1  and lap  9 ?

DanieleM

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 264
 #11 
Hi Juerg, the power values are all in the csv.
Anyway, here the screenshot for lap 1 and lap 9, that you have correctly matched [smile] with Power and SmO2.
Lap#1 (to be precise half lap1/half lap2):
lap1.png 
Here what I find interesting is that in the first part with a big load (uphill) SmO2 seems increasing as if the medialis is not much involved except for some sudden drops later (perhaps standing sprints?)
Lap#9 (half lap9/half lap 10):
lap9.png 
Here SmO2 is slightly dropping during the uphill (first few minutes).
 

Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter - Quick-counter.net