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juergfeldmann

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 #1 
Here  some  thoughts  on  classical Training  zoning  and   what we  discuss in this   forum.

I like  to   get a  nice   picture  of the  question  from one of many emails I am receiving all with the similar  question or  discussion.

HI Juerg 

Do you have some information on the training zones you propose in the forum 

oxy

STEI

De-Oxy 

and the benefits of training in each zone  

I am going to set up some zones for an athlete based on a recent test but just need to be clear in my mind what the zones mean

In  future  and Pro level  coaching and personal coaching   there will be  a  Zoning .
 Why would we create a  Zone  based on   even an 5/1/5 assessment. This assessment tells  us  the current limiters and compensator  on this  day and  just gives  us  a baseline  where  we stand   and what  we  can or like to work on.And    some  times  later, whether we   create a different intensity  structure   due to functional or structural changes.

True, if   somebody  runs a business  and does not like to look too  foolish  for the moment  we may need to show  some zoning ideas.

See  example  we have  for Ryan  with the   starter idea  and the advanced  idea.

Now in contrast to  classical a zoning   coaches  who use individual physiological  ideas    use the  " zoning"  or better the  three intensities  to actual decide on  what they like to  stimulate.

Benefit  of each "Zone"  /Intensity

in the  OXY  intensity or   in the intensity , where  delivery is  much  higher  or  at least  balanced     compared  to  utilization  we  can do anything  as  none of  the   physiological systems is  on its limitation and as  sch we  can choose  what reeve we like to stress or stimulate  today. I  can stress  utilization  without  actually challenging any of the delivery systems  severely or minimal.
I  can challenge a  delivery system  without actually  really  pushing utilization  at all.
So  this is the  bets  intensity or  if  we like Zone  we  can have. You choose  you control  you   deliver.

In the balanced  ( homeostasis)  intensity
where we  try to  push  just as much need  for O2  that we  can deliver  it. (  some may  compare it with MAX LASS  or  lactate steady state  or  FTP  or what ever we use as a magical  feedback ) The difference is.  with live  NIRS feedback we  always   know and see whether we  are still there  above or below.
 Problem here is, that we loose  some control  as one of  the physiological systems  the LIMITER is   pushed  for sure  and we  have no  control. s  son we add some additional tasks  we overload the limiter  and we  may have to  use a  compensator . Now  that may be  a  goal  of  the workout, but  as well we  may not like  it. So  some restriction  but as well some benefits. It is all up to the coach  to plan  what he likes  to achieve  with his client  and how it is   eh best  way  . That is  why we  charge  money as  coalesces  as we work with a client on his  ability  and  for his  goal.

In the De  OXY intensity

You loose   as a coach  complete  control . You have the limiter pushed  to  its  survival mode  and the compensatory  as well  and it is simply a  time bomb  who may   create a string  enough signal or  risk  for  survival  ATP levels  and  needed pO2   levels

That's  where I  have a very different idea  towards  HIIT  as  many times  they  are miss . I like to have MISS  replacing the HIIT  MISS as   mentioned   for maximal individual system stimulation..
I may use a  high intensity  but i may actually avoid  a high intensity as I like to target  just one  physiological system  to its limitation and not  uncontrolled all.
 HIIT  has a  risks  of overloading   a great  system, a compensator by steady ask him  to compensate  for somebody, who actually  could or should do the  job, if  properly trained. You suddenly  loose  your best worker. Easy  daily  example s  who  go  wrong. Track and field runner  with a reduced hip rotation . Overload of Achilles tendon   solution improve  hip rotation
Respiratory problem in a COPD  overload  of kidneys  as they compensate for a  while.And many more  you know as well from daily  experience.


Summary. You do not have  Zones. you have   controlled live intensities , where you have  complete  restricted or no control over what you stimulate.

 I've seen lots of stuff on the forum but cannot really see a definitive guide.

Sorry  wrong  person  in me  as I  do not see how  to create  a guide  s  it is a physiologically  trained or   smart coach  who actually creates a  restaurant  with his  own  style  and  be the chef we talk all along.

SWINCO  a company  (Swiss innervation  company)  is  working on training  software  and  seminars  for  Chefs  and has  run together with IDIAG  Switzerland  since many years  seminars  for  coaches  and individual  from all over the world.

. Setting the zones is fairly easy I think based on Sm02 but what we are achieving I am not too clear .

That is  true  and the start  we proposed. Now  as a coach you finally   create  a " zoning" where you see live  what is going on  and where you know  what you can do  and use  your  experience  and knowledge  to  deliver  this individual program.


what we are achieving I am not too clear .

Hmm I have  a problem to understand  that. What you like to achieve  is up  to you  the coach  in  contact  and goal setting with your client.
 If  you like to achieve  a  better utilization , than you  sit down  and look at the time  available  from your client,  the  days  the options of  the years  and than you offer  the different possibility you  can see  and than fit  it into the clients daily live style  and committeemen. That's  how you achieve the   goal  positively the best.  In the  past  you had a  100 %  than a  calculator and  you  where hoping you would achieve  what ever  %  of something told  you.  If we had progress we  believed  it  was  exactly  what I targeted (or perhaps something different ) but no questions asked. If we  do not progress  we  are lost.
 In physiological guided workouts you know what you do and therefor you know why you made progress or not  and you see where the progress took place. Perhaps  not expected  but you know, what you did  and see the result of  this workouts.

I know  a very different  idea  but fun to  think through it.


 

CraigMahony

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Posts: 178
 #2 
Juerg
I understand your reasoning behind HIIT v MISS. One of the main problem I have as a coach is knowing some methods / protocols for stressing limiters but still being in the OXY intensity zone. 

The main thing I wanted to state/ask about is something I have been thinking for a while now.
As a coach of a few middle distance runners it would seem to me that runners need to develop / improve their inter and intra muscular coordination at race pace so that they can generate the forces required to run at a fairly fast speed and to run with a smoother more efficient stride thus reducing energy loss. You mentioned that the OXY Zone was best for working on physiological development where  delivery is  much  higher  or  at least  balanced     compared  to  utilization  we  can do anything  as  none of  the   physiological systems is  on its limitation and as  sch we  can choose  what reeve we like to stress or stimulate  today. However I do think the OXY Zone is fast enough to develop the neuromuscular aspect. HIIT at least can do this as well.What are your thoughts on this please?
juergfeldmann

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 #3 
Craig  great points  and I love the fact  that you work  with middle distance runners.
 I  had  the privileged  to  work  in the  time around 1988  with some of the worlds    bets  middle distance  runners  form different countries  in St. Moritz. ( Seb Coe, , Mike Boit, ,S  Aquita ) In fact  Andris   good father was  a  top  800 / 1500 m runner  at that  time  and an athlete I    had fun to work  with.
 To  your  point s  :

One of the main problem I have as a coach is knowing some methods / protocols for stressing limiters but still being in the OXY intensity zone.

Yes  that is  for many coaches  a problem  and  we  simply will have to wait    till associations  or    workshops  are  organised  form   MOXY or NIRS users    and than  they can if they are interested  show this.
 This forum is  as  I many times     explained  a NIRS  interpretation  forum  to show  how  coaches can   use  NIRS  for the  workouts  if  they like,  but   I can not give you    workouts  or  ideas in how  you do it.

However I do think the OXY Zone is fast enough to develop the neuromuscular aspect. HIIT at least can do this as well.What are your thoughts on this please?

I assume  you  mean  NOT  fast enough .
 I  think  the opposite  we  can do in  many sports not in  all sports  a  OXY  intensity  and move in fact  much better intermuscular  because we do not limit this due   to high intensity.
 Intra muscular coordination  is  even easier , as we can   do this do this  over  a very short moment.

I had once the privilege  in Mallorca   long back  to  train  with the   multiple   gold medal  and  world  champion in a track event  from the   former DDR.
 He  had a similar  approach like MIKE  Boit , which who I had  some running  workouts.

Both  had  a similar  warning, when I  claimed  that  it is  not  smart  to take  me  for a  workout  because I am  not   good or fats enough. Both smiled  and said.
 You will be  too fast because  you are too slow.  Both  had  no clue  what NIRS is both  simply had   the feeling    for  what the optimal   intensity   for them was to  work on speed, The following winter  we adopted  this idea into cross country skiing, when I was  apart of the Olympic  coaching team  for  Calgary /. Look  Nordic  combine Swiss  national team results  1988. We   hope one of the  reason  for success  besides  luck  and many other reasons  like family  support  and more  was  a very unique  way of  working high speed   with minimal intensity so we  could do it over and over again  without  overloading physiologically  the athletes.
 For recovery we often used  SEMG  reactions due to  feedback  from the   motor units. as well as   some ideas  we tested  than  with ammonia . Smart of  not . Not sure   still after all this years.
 Thanks  for the  great question.  Sorry  for the terrible answer. Your  point is  well taken and one of the most emails  I am getting.
 We  understand  the great options  for  using NIRS  for assessments  but  how  do we  sue it  for workouts.
 Start with what ever  you do and  check  whether you improve   with what you do by reassessing and see, whether your  target  system really improves.  Use  NIRS  plus experience  to    know  what you  target,

juergfeldmann

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 #4 
A  few nice  feedback  with the  request  to  put  the three intensities   in a different  wording.
I  will try.
a)  as higher we  go  with intensity  , or  as closer we get  to  the  ,maximal  ability  to   do a  task, as smaller the options to  actually decide  what you like to do as we have  forced  some system  to their  limitation and some system may  try to compensate  as long as possible.
 So  the Limiter is out  of control, the compensator  is  working but  for  that  particular task and can not be sued  for  some additional  ideas.

 Or  here a  practical    example:
 Biceps   curls.
 Your  maximal  1 Rep  weight  for a  biceps  curl (  shortening  the  muscle fibers )  is 50 kg.
 Now  if  you  work   with  20 kg  you have a lot  of options to  design  your  elbow flexion motion, you can go  30 degrees  hold  and  let a little bit go   or move  after a short  stop  to 50 degrees,  you can go in different body position and  do  biceps  curls  against  gravity  or in a horizontal plain  and so on.  You  can even  do some additional motion  with it like  supination , where  the biceps has to work  as well  and so on.
As  close  you are getting to  the 50 kg  as  smaller the   ability  to   do some additional task  and you have to focus on the   biceps  curl  alone. If  you decide  to  take  60 kg  so  above  the  ability  above the biceps  curl limitation  you  may be able to  do this  by using  for example  you   whole body as a  start momentum  to get the initial  motion  going  and you may  impress with a  curl but not because  you had  the strength in the biceps  but the ability  to  compensate.
 Now  you  clearly overload  the biceps  and   increase the risk  of  an injury, but depending how  you comp0ensate  you may  work   on a wrong pattern   for further  improvement of a proper biceps  curl.

Hope it makes  sense.
Kotinos

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 #5 
I have too many questions. [smile]

It seems that there is a spectrum. On one end there is stressing single systems in the OXY zone, the other end stressing most all of the systems, in a HIIT or MISS fashion.

The zones are decided by looking over 5 minute windows. So second zone, whatever we are calling it, is one where delivery and utilization are balanced.

What happens when we shorten the training periods. We agree that the limiter and compensator are pulled in at loads above the balanced one. But are they pulled in when the duration is simply 30 seconds or 1 minute? That is, can single systems be targeted as nicely at higher power if the duration is shortened?

That said, does anyone have experience with how long each interval should be to provide a nice stimulus to each system? I have some but limited.

Can anyone here speak to their experience on the tradeoff between stressing a single system at a lower intensity versus stressing (potentially more than one) systems at specific race intensity (yet perhaps short durations)?

Should one train by targeting single systems, what has been your experience with the need to later reintegrate all the systems? That is, to what extent do the systems fail to work together when going this route?

So much talk about the central governor model in the forum. Seems like a huge priority for advanced athletes is training the brain to be calm at increasingly higher loads. Does training in OXY zone take time from this goal? Is anyone trying to do push the governor while remaining at loads well-below race intensity?

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CraigMahony

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 #6 
Kotinos
One example of training in an OXY / AREI zone for endurance athletes would be the easy runs / rides which hopefully increase the the number of capillaries in the appropriate muscles. Of course you would also be training fat burning, muscular endurance, etc.
juergfeldmann

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Posts: 1,501
 #7 
Some incredible  nice  questions  and all questions  I had  once    I created  this ideas.

One example of training in an OXY / AREI zone for endurance athletes would be the easy runs / rides which hopefully increase the the number of capillaries in the appropriate muscles. Of course you would also be training fat burning, muscular endurance, etc.


The above idea on OXY  is  the classical idea  and nothing wrong  with this.
But there are many other options to use  OXY  zone.
 I  do a lot of  OXY  zone  for  for example Right ventricular  load   or  for  stressing the central governor  up regulation  of 2.3  DPG  reactivity  or  for CO2  antioxydant  stimulation.  and so on. This goes as  well a  hint  in   that he  central Governor  as nothing to do  with high intensity but   with a highly  specific  stimulation  of  the limiter.  So both has to be done. I f you have in a  4 man rowing boat a specific  limitation for one  rower  you work  on this  one by one  and than reintegrate him into the boat.   Does it  woke  . Hmm    I have  some very interesting cases like an Achilles tendon rupture  three month before a summer Olympics. No  dry land  training  till 2  weeks before  and than just easy. So all H + stimulation  as well as  and mitochondria  density where done in low intensity  and some in the water.  Result was a  6  place  and 4 years later  a  silver medal in a  long distance  discipline. Yes 4  years later    was healthy  but we  did  still many ideas we learned    4  years  before.
 Many  more practical  application in cases with stress fracture  or post operative  ACL  in skier  and so on. That is  one of  the keys in rehabilitation  if  an upcoming season is a   goal  for the athlete  so train " Hard / Smart "  without interfering with the  healing of  structures  lie bone  , ligament s perhaps  tendons  and muscles.
 Even in cases  with viral infections  where high intensity increases re occurrence  and  valve  health risk  we  can  do  specific   stimulation to    allow   healing time but not loosing  high intensity  ability  like H +  buffering and more.  Now   as so many times  mentioned. These are training  related information as well as training  related  application of  NIRS. So  the  tool  for this is  NIRS interpretation  and  that's  what|I hope  we can give here on this  form. The training  part is  up to the  experience  coaches  as  they do this since many years  already. Now  NIRS  helps  them to  gt  some additional feedbakcs  so  they do not need to use only performance but as wlel physiological stimulation no matter on the intensities.
Kotinos

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 #8 
Wow. Thank you Juerg.
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