Sign up Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 3 of 3      Prev   1   2   3
sebo2000

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 227
 #31 
Rayan can you comment:

Perhaps one way would be to do a few really hard sprints with the Moxy on and at the end of the sprint on recovery do some intervals with no pedalling and some with pedalling. If the issue is respiratory/C02 then i think we will see a more delayed Sm02 rebound on recovery because of a right shift of the dissociation curve.

eg. 5 sprints 2-3 min apart?
What do you mean by: interval with no pedalling and some with pedalling? Do you mean recovery intervals?


Juerg

If  you don not have this symptoms  and you  breath deep  and  hard  and more  than needed  you create  ??????

hyperoxia, hypoxia

So  if  you  are in the opposite as  you create  with  the above idea  than you are  ??????? 

Anoxia, when I"m in anoxia steady hard breathing will bring my O to normal levels...

Cook Book works!!!It just hit me:

Instead of looking at theories and individual people muscle engagement cook book could say:

Determine involvement level of each of your muscles: VL, RF, GM, TA Etc. 
and determine imbalance. I will try to do that using Skulpt & Moxy and see how it compares[smile]

Can you explain what % of pedaling cycle means, this is great research, I was looking for something to compare.

I'm still not clear what my limiter is besides my VL being overloaded.










ryinc

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 369
 #32 
Hi sebo2000, first take whatever i say with caution i dont have the knowledge or experience of others on the forum.

Yes i was suggesting that you do some sprints. Do the sprints exactly as you described them in your first posts when you explained they cause you a discomfort.in your head. At the end of the sprint, stop pedalling completely for some (discomfort in your head) and keep pedalling lightly for some. If you see sm02 has a more delayed recovery response when you stop pedalling, then i think this possibly confirms a C02 buildup because of Juergs point about respiration pattern possibly being less effective when you stop pedalling than if you continue pedalling lightly.

Hope this makes sense.
sebo2000

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 227
 #33 

Hi All,

I did another set of intervals and need your comments/suggestions/explanation [smile] No warmup, 12 sets of 5min at 200W 1 min RIB , during rests right leg down always in the same position, or easy spin with trainer set to 0W. Moxy on right VL, drinking only at the beginning of interval.

 csv file attached and pic below

1st rest - right leg down

2nd rest right leg down

3rd rest right leg down while holding breath, lasted 15s, deep breath in at the end of 3rd load (rest marked red circle as 1)

4th - rest right leg down while holding breath, lasted 15s, deep breath at the end of previous 4th load (rest marked red circle as 2)

5th rest slow easy spin trainer set to 0W (but power probably at 40-50W)

Interval 200w for 2 min then breathe in and hold it, lasted 14sec hard to perform (lap 2 line)

6th rest right leg down

200W for 2 min then breathe in and hold it, lasted 13s very hard to perform (lap 3 line)

7th rest right leg down

200W for 2 min then exhaled lasted only 8 sec super hard (marked in red circle as 3, lap 4 lne))

8th rest right leg down

200W for 2 min then exhaled lasted only 8sec super very hard (marked in red circle as 4, lap 5 lap))

9th rest right leg down

200W my new pedal stroke to increase SmO2 (red circle 7, smo2 is up)

10th rest right leg down

200W old pedal stroke

11th rest right leg down

200W my new pedal stroke to increase SmO2 lasted 3 min then dropped it to normal pedal stroke)

12th rest right leg down

 

And last interesting experiment

15min@200W - normal pedal stroke, after 5min put the altitude mask on for 5min, then after 5 min riding with altitude mask I removed it and finished with normal pedal stroke to the end.

 

Few questions:

 

  1. Red circle 1,2. When taking breath immediately after stop during recovery, I can see SmO2 recovers, then dips when I run out of air, then shoots high when I take a breath after only 15 seconds of not breathing. I’m assuming that is what we want to see?
  2. Look at blue lap lines Lap 2, Lap 3, Lap 4, Lap 5 and red circle 3,4 Exactly the same intervals the only difference is I took breath in first two, and exhaled and in next two. My SmO2 goes further down when I hold air in my lungs and my tHb doesn’t change that much, when I exhale, my SmO2 does not go as low as previously, but tHb shoots up, and let me tell you that was really hard to do, dark place for sure. What is causing that tHb spike?

 

  1. Just for kicks in last 15 min load, after 5 min I have put my elevation mask on (I would rather call it resistance device) , my HR went few points up, but also my SmO2 went up 2-3 points, how come if it is much harder to breath in it???? Is it extra pressure that builds up while breathing very hard, pushes O2 a bit harder in my lungs? Obviously calling it elevation mask it is a scam, since SmO2 goes up instead of down [smile]

 

My new pedal stroke in red circle 7 – SmO2 is slightly up for entire 5 min, I tried the same in interval 12, but lasted only 3 min [smile]

 

Rayan,

You suggestions and comments are amazing. I checked my lactate test Moxy file, I did 5min TT and felt the symptoms, but SmO2 recovered very quickly without any delay, the delay I see is 2-3 seconds caused by how Moxy write the data. What delay would we expect 10-30 seconds?

  Moxy 12x5min at 200W breathing experimentsComments.jpg 

 
Attached Files
csv Moxy_12x5min_at_200W_breathing_experimentsGoldenCheetah.csv (496.33 KB, 5 views)
csv Moxy_12x5_200w_breathing_tests.csv (89.72 KB, 4 views)

bobbyjobling

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
 #34 
Hi sebo, with regards to your comment about using the mask in the last interval .

The reason you see a slightly higher smO2 might be due to the way the mask stimulate the respiratory muscle as it has to work harder and the metabolic demand is higher so HR has to increase, this HR increase will push more blood in VL too and because your load is relatively low the oxygen consumption is not overwhelming the respiratory system so VL o2 will go up.

But I'm not an expert [smile]
sebo2000

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 227
 #35 


The reason you see a slightly higher smO2 might be due to the way the mask stimulate the respiratory muscle as it has to work harder and the metabolic demand is higher so HR has to increase, this HR increase will push more blood in VL too and because your load is relatively low the oxygen consumption is not overwhelming the respiratory system so VL o2 will go up. 

Bobby I think you are right on the money. Respiratory muscle muscles are getting workout for sure. I'm surprised they are allowed to sell this under such a misleading name Elevation Mask...
ryinc

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 369
 #36 
Sebo,  interesting data. Well done for running all the experiments to help us all learn.

Mythoughts:

  1. Red circle 1,2. When taking breath immediately after stop during recovery, I can see SmO2 recovers, then dips when I run out of air, then shoots high when I take a breath after only 15 seconds of not breathing. I’m assuming that is what we want to see?
I think what you see is that Sm02 initially recovers, at the end of the load because utilisation stops at that moment. Then because you are not breathing, you don't get rid of C02, this shifts the oxygen dissociation curve to the right and Sm02 drops. Then when you start breathing again, the curve shifts back and Sm02 recovers as normal. I think the precise moment when you hold your breath might make a difference to the picture, for example, if you had held your breath slightly earlier you might see Sm02 continue to fall after load and then recover once you start breathing normally again. I don't think that there is a picture "we want to see" just the picture that really happened, and that we can then try to interpret.

  1. Look at blue lap lines Lap 2, Lap 3, Lap 4, Lap 5 and red circle 3,4 Exactly the same intervals the only difference is I took breath in first two, and exhaled and in next two. My SmO2 goes further down when I hold air in my lungs and my tHb doesn’t change that much, when I exhale, my SmO2 does not go as low as previously, but tHb shoots up, and let me tell you that was really hard to do, dark place for sure. What is causing that tHb spike?
In both cases, i think there is a tHb increase if you look carefully, it just seems more pronounced on the exhale scenario.  Again my guess is that this is perhaps a right shift of dissociation curve. Perhaps the exhale scenario achieves this to a greater degree (i.e. more C02 buildup = bigger thB spike). The 02 drop for the exhale option might actually be bigger too but because tHB increases and Sm02 is a percentage of tHB Sm02 is higher than the first interval).  There could be other things happening though so sure Juerg will add insight. 

  1. Just for kicks in last 15 min load, after 5 min I have put my elevation mask on (I would rather call it resistance device) , my HR went few points up, but also my SmO2 went up 2-3 points, how come if it is much harder to breath in it???? Is it extra pressure that builds up while breathing very hard, pushes O2 a bit harder in my lungs? Obviously calling it elevation mask it is a scam, since SmO2 goes up instead of down [smile]
I am not sure i see that much that is conclusive in the graph 2-3 Sm02 points is not much change. Maybe tHB slightly up.

Rayan,

You suggestions and comments are amazing. I checked my lactate test Moxy file, I did 5min TT and felt the symptoms, but SmO2 recovered very quickly without any delay, the delay I see is 2-3 seconds caused by how Moxy write the data. What delay would we expect 10-30 seconds?


Not sure i understand. Are you saying that you felt the uncomfortable symptoms in your head on the 5km TT (i.e. not only sprints), but in that case the Sm02 recovered very quickly? I think it is difficult to say how long a delay we expect to see because that would be quite individual etc. I think what i was suggesting is to compare how Sm02 recovers when you pedal in the recovery vs don't pedal in the recovery after a sprint. The "textbook" case would be that Sm02 recovers more quickly when you don't pedal because utilisation immediately stops but delivery continues. However, in your case if there is a respiratory issue that occurs which leads to a buildup of C02 which causes discomfort in your head, then we may actually see the reverse i.e. Sm02 takes slightly longer to recover in that case. I think you would need to do a couple of repeats of the experiment to confirm it. One of the ways that is sometimes helpful to see if there is a delay is look at tHb, if tHb starts rebounding quicker than Sm02 then it is more likely that it is actually a delay that you are seeing.

Again this is just me throwing out a possible theory, no expert just a forum reader trying to learn on the forum


 

sebo2000

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 227
 #37 


Not sure i understand. Are you saying that you felt the uncomfortable symptoms in your head on the 5km TT (i.e. not only sprints), but in that case the Sm02 recovered very quickly? I think it is difficult to say how long a delay we expect to see because that would be quite individual etc. I think what i was suggesting is to compare how Sm02 recovers when you pedal in the recovery vs don't pedal in the recovery after a sprint. The "textbook" case would be that Sm02 recovers more quickly when you don't pedal because utilisation immediately stops but delivery continues. However, in your case if there is a respiratory issue that occurs which leads to a buildup of C02 which causes discomfort in your head, then we may actually see the reverse i.e. Sm02 takes slightly longer to recover in that case. I think you would need to do a couple of repeats of the experiment to confirm it. One of the ways that is sometimes helpful to see if there is a delay is look at tHb, if tHb starts rebounding quicker than Sm02 then it is more likely that it is actually a delay that you are seeing.

Again this is just me throwing out a possible theory, no expert just a forum reader trying to learn on the forum

(I really like your theories, they make sense, I'm here to learn as well ,and appreciate honest feedback) I will do few all out sprints, and rest while spinning vs not spinning.
I'm very curious of the outcome, I think you are right SmO2 will recover quicker when I stop, but it will recover higher when i spin, this is fun! (the difference might be very small)


I felt that uncomfortable symptoms after 5min of all out TT with off the saddle sprint at the end during my lactate test, when I was close to the end last 30-45s I pushed to the limits.
I kept pedaling very slowly, and can see my SMO2 and THB went very quickly up, I didn't see any delay.
I'm attaching chart from that lactate test:

Brown - tHb
Red - HR
Yellow - power
light blue speed
greenish/blue line at the bottom - SmO2

Yellow line shows steps from 100W incremented by 20W till 300W, then rest, and at Lap 4 - 5min TT all out, you can see me increasing power from 2.5 min till the end. My HR increasing, tHb steady, and SmO2 steady as well.

LactateMoxy.jpg 





juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #38 
what is a 100 %  pedal  cycle. in this  SEMG  graphs.
 Well  let's get  the answers  from  the many cycling readers ???
juergfeldmann

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,501
 #39 
Juerg

If  you don not have this symptoms  and you  breath deep  and  hard  and more  than needed  you create  ??????

Here some feedback. If  we breath  we  could  use the name  we  ventilate  air or  ventilation.
 The physiological idea  is, that  the ventilation is nicely controlled  and   if  we breath what is really needed   we  have a balanced  O2  dissociation  curve. Some  would say , that our  CO2 is balanced  as well and tuna we  name this normo (  as  in  normal )  capnia  as in  the idea of  the CO2 levels.

Now  the fascinating  section is, that when we  go  to the specialist  so respiratory   specialists the  definitions  are  clear. We  go to sport  journalists  and with it coaches  and  even exercise physiologists  than we  will be  confused.

Now  if  we breath more  than  "normal " needed  we call, it hyper ( more  or  above )  ventilation. Small experiment. Breath just now  double as  fast as  you  do  at  rest and  2  - 3  x  as deep  and hard  and look hat happens to you in  about  30 +- seconds.  ????  This is called  hyper ventilation  you are now   hypo  ( too low  on CO2  capnic.  What  direction  do you shift  the O2  dissociation curve.  What does  this means  for  O2 affinity . How  can MOXY  support this idea ?

 Now  the opposite   so  too little  ventilation  is  called  hypo ventilation  and the  result will be a  hypercapnia. Same  question on O2  Diss curve  and O2    and MOXY reaction ??

Now  where  is the confusion in sport. A  400 m runner  or  800 m runner at the end of a race or a  rower or what ever. Are  they really hyperventiliating. ??  when  can we  argue  that they are now   normocapnic. The  really  do  hyperpneu  but they are  for a while rally  hypoventilate.  More  later 


pnia.
hyperoxia, hypoxia

So  if  you  are in the opposite as  you create  with  the above idea  than you are  ??????? 

Anoxia, when I"m in anoxia steady hard breathing will bring my O to normal levels...
bobbyjobling

Development Team Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
 #40 
In the final sprint SmO2 looks higher then the last segment of the ramp. Perhaps muscle coordination is helping VL ...

I don't have access to a PC as I'm on holiday so I'm analysing your charts on my mobile and I may miss some stuff [frown]
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.

HTML hit counter - Quick-counter.net