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juergfeldmann

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 #16 
Great fun Fred  sent  csv  file  as I like to look over the weekend. In a first glance look tHb  on  VL  and BF   over the full workout . What can we see easy ?
fitbyfred

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 #17 
Juerg, hi. Here's the combined csv 

The BF tHb never gets the tHb overshoots like the VL. 

During the "fun", the BF required 1-2 min over the VL for recovery.

Which shows some more utility of more than a single MOXY.

 
Attached Files
csv FBF_Conditioning_Sled_-_Client_1_-_VL_&_BF.csv (167.57 KB, 10 views)

Ruud_G

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 #18 
So when looking at the amplitude of SmO2 BL and VL during the workout there is trend of an increasing VL amplitude. Especially in the last loads. Usage of BL is however actually trending downward like more utilisation than delivery. Utilisation of VL seems quite flat or little. So VL seems to "profit" more from the rest periods (higher amplitudes) further in the workout compared to BL. Muscle coordination? Just a first observation (with no reason / explanation though [frown]
fitbyfred

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 #19 
Ruud, hi. `

G'morning and thank you for your feedback: 

Thought 1)
"So VL seems to "profit" more from the rest periods (higher amplitudes) further in the workout compared to BL."

I should say that I'm unsure about the hamstring placement. Next we should look at this comparing VL to medial hamstrings ???     

I wonder if this downward trend %SmO2 is also related to less reload rather than just an increase utilization. It's seems as the loads progressed the hamstring recruitment also progressed.

Thought 2)
Muscle coordination?

Is this an example of coordination dysharmony ? Quads dominance is stealing supply?

From the practical workout side: 

For the benefit of stimulating better hip extension adaption (in future) would it make most sense to stop after 1-2 progressions past the point of reload restraint, or say on first reload restraint drop the load back to previous level with best physiological performance and continue while trying to maintain standard stimulation ???

   FBF Sled Workout 2 MOXYs.jpg

I think next we'll aim to repeat w/ second MOXY fixed on a more proximal hip extensor - glute max and/or fix the MOXY to the medial hamstring.

juergfeldmann

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 #20 
This is  fun  and you see why we  often have no answer  but many great  feedbacks  to move  forward  critically. I will play   for a long time today  with this. Here a  very short feedback I experienced    when using MOXY  and SEMG  at the same time.
 The  question off a  2  joint  moving muscle  versus  an one  joint moving muscle.  Example . Quadriceps . VL  as a  muscle   who contributes to   just leg extension  and this in a very specific  range. Vastus medialis  the same idea  but really mainly  contributes   for the last  10 - 15  degrees extension. Now  the  rectus  section which allows  to help in knee extension but as well in hip flexion. The first time I really  was looking  at this is many years back  with the first power cranks we got  from Frank Day. The SEMG  activity  as we  biked  and why we  would  "Kill" the hip flexion area   when we started  out.
 The  restcus  part never ever got a  break  and we created  a basically isometric  contraction  on the SEMG   once we added NIRS  we  could easy  demonstrate  that we  actually  created  an arterial occlusion  So  killed  delivery  and therefore  just only utilization. With increase in coordination we   got  more efficient  and got  shorter occlusion trend   with longer   blood flow trends  and we  could sustain  the  pedal technique  over a very long  time. First it seems we  had  to go slow  and basically thinking what we did. With improvement of  coordination we  where able to increase  RPM.
 If  we  used a high RPM in the not optimal coordination stage  , than we  had a  much higher   risk of creating an occlusion again as the time  between  pull and push  was too short  to  try to relax  and allow  free  or  at least  some  blood flow.
 This could explain the RPM  discussion we have I an other  place.
 Initially  we had   not  compression   and decompression but  actual    occlusion trend  and  occlusion outflow  but  tHb  would look the same.

The difference was in compensatory reaction. When we had occlusion reactions  we had   as well a much higher  VO2  and a much higher  VE  but mainly over  increase in RF  and decrease in TV. This as well created a higher  HR  and  the same here a  higher HR  but a  smaller  or lower SV.  So  why this story.
 It will be fun  to watch the  assessment  and that's  where ideas like Wimu  and live taping of the movement will be fun in the future.
 VL  one  joint  muscle  . Biceps  femoris  a  2  joint muscle  so  he  works  during hip  extension but  how much is  he still working  when we  have the leg in the  air  and move the leg one step forward  so  knee flexion  and  will this have  an influence in the   recovering on the ones  side  and tHb  reaction in the other side.
 This is  why we  work  on a  software  with  markers  so we get a  nice feedback in  much easier. So give me  some time   but not sure  how smart  my feedback may be to the great  discussion you guys already started here.

fitbyfred

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 #21 
Juerg, hi, thanks for your feedback too. 

Yes, we are longing for a software who can assist the selection and presentation of  situations following assessment. 

Regarding our discussion below, does it look to you like the coordination of the thigh is dominant and the shunt is supportive, or does it look like something more sinister that needs addressing?

FBF
juergfeldmann

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 #22 
Ruud this is a fundamental question    many may have  and we often get answers  but not real  studies with some    newer  exceptions.
 The  point  I  look at :
 (how deep, how high / variability) SmO2 reacts can depend on the muscle type.  

Do you recall any  studies  where they think   NIRS  can tell the   muscle fiber  type   based on SmO2 trends. ?  With studies I mean real studies ,  not  based on theory , but on actual  findings  on how we  separate  FTF  and  STF    with NIRS  SmO2  trends.
juergfeldmann

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 #23 
Fred  and all other readers. Here some  thoughts  to the sled  workout  and  as well an example  how we use  NIRS  to find out more about effectiveness  of  workouts  and as a  kind  of  guidance   to  the amount of  load repetitions and  the  recovery time in between.
 So here no solution but I like to show you how I go about  information's and feedback  for any kind  of  activities.

1. I look  first the overall  overlap  whine I use  two or more MOXYS  to see, where there  may be some interesting trends,   so I  go back later and look this  areas much closer.

SmO2 overall overlap  of VL ( vastus  lateralis)  and BF  (Biceps femoris)

. overlapp  smo2.jpg  Short  view. a) first 4  sets  recovery trend BF ? compared to the   next sets plus  recovery " speed "
b )  amplitude of SmO2  first 8  set  compared  to the last 2  sets in comparison.
  Now I  than look  whether tHb trends  may already  give some hints on the SmO2 trends.
 Remember. Everybody  can desaturation  down to zero   so  that is where we have some problems  to  make a  save statement  on  STF  and FTF  fiber  differentiation.
 The  SmO2  drop or  the  deoxygenation   depends  very often on the delivery situation. An arterial occlusion ( no delivery) will create always an extreme  desaturation over time, no matter of the persons   athletic  and  or fitness ability.  So the last  2 load sin VL   is  an interesting point  as well the overall BF  tHb reactions compared  with  VL  tHb  reactions.


2  tHb overlap VL  and BF overall.
overlapp thb.jpg 
What do you see?

So let's  go closer  and look  first  SmO2  in  2  early loads and the two last loads.Overlap of VL  and BF

smo2  overlapp  start  and end.jpg

Left  start loads  right end loads. In the end load the second last we have a  short moment loss of  connection in BF

Now  lets look at the same section tHb reactions  overlap.
thb overlapp strat and  end.jpg 

No comment  just some lines ???? Now let's look  VL  close on this  tow  section early and late  an overlap  with tHb  and SmO2.

vl  early loads.jpg 

Above early load  below late load  Can you see the difference ?
 




vl  end loads.jpg


Now let's look the same places  for BF  so first early load  below  followed by late load

earli load BF.jpg 

Late load below
late load  BF.jpg

Interesting isn't  it.?


 Now lets overlap muscle contraction feedback  by overlapping tHb  early  and late.
start  thb overlapp.jpg 
Above early  and bow late.
end  thb overlapp.jpg 



Next  time up  to avoid overload  ( haha  already happened).  the biased  feed backs  as it is  I think  easier to see delivery and utilization changes  when they happen.

Ruud_G

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 #24 
Juerg. I can' t remember a study in which this is the topic. This question however already came up in 2013 (on this forum) and also then there wasn't a study. Only thing is that STF have more mitochondrial density which might show in utlisation trends. However since it is always a composition of fybertypes we're looking at it's hard (if not impossible) to tell. Also when taking into account your delivery remark and what is often seen in good endurance athletes=> super high delivery and relatively "low" utilisation (note how I stated "low").
fitbyfred

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 #25 
Juerg, hi, g'morning. Thanks for your time and energy to breakout the components of the sled workout. Here's your overlapping SmO2 marked up. FYI for any readers for this topic.

  Juerg SmO2 Overlap.jpeg 

Couple thoughts: in an ideal 2 MOXY guided workout the slower reload of the BF is the main indicator as loss of physiological performance?  

For this comparison of tHb from VL and BF over first 2 sets and last 2 sets:
 
Juerg tHb Last 2 Sets.jpeg 

This tHb reloading pattern on the 2nd last 2 sets is indicating the overload and possibly a slower recruitment?  

Juerg tHb 1st 2 Sets.jpeg

The VL & BF tHb overall points to a restrained delivery to BF ?

2447894.jpeg

juergfeldmann

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 #26 
Fred  woww yo give me lots  of  feedback and work to think  carefully though , that is  fun.
 Ruud. Yes the STF  FTF  fiber  and NIRS is  an interesting question. The fact , that super endurance athletes  we  test  show little  drop in SmO2  even under hard  conditions gives  me  some   thoughts  to go through. If  STF  suppose to use  O2   nicely    due to mitochondria density   does that make sense  and  why do we see what we see. .
 We  test some  of the worlds best endurance  super endurance athletes   for  preparation of a 24  hour  world  record  so  that is an interesting  question.
 Another  study    I did  or  doing her locally but I hope Andri  can move this into  his university group is  using NIRS  on clearly  established  fiber  type  offers.
 Example. I  collecting data  from scoliosis . What we know  from biopsies  is, that the convex  side  is mainly STF  and the concave  side  is FTF  so by  doing  proper  controlled    back extension symmetrically I  can live  compare  concave  and  convex   or  STF  FTF    NIRS  reactions trends. And they look interesting  for the moment  at least need another  about  50  patients  to have some  directions on the trends.
 The second  group I test  is people  getting ready  for a  hip replacement  and  knee  replacement  so testing before  and after  the ops  and during  rehab  as  STF  fibers  suppose  to be lost  possibly faster . So have about  30   data  but  not conclusive  at all. After the first  9  I  had all the same result  but than number 10 through all ideas over board  so back to the drawing board  I went  and now  I have  three different options  so  again no cook book . So  will take some time  for  myself  to get an optimal idea  so I can integrate it  into my clients  workout ideas  and  hopefully down the road  some accepted    groups  will come up  with some  great  data so it is  a peer group reviewed  work  and not  a goat farm  fun game. ( Hope fully  more than  5 - 10    subjects  as we unfortunately often see.  This are  for my point of  view  interesting case studies with limited   value  on the actual  topic.
Ruud_G

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 #27 
Found something with hypotheses regarding fiber type:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/824319_5
fitbyfred

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 #28 
Ruud_G, hi and thanks for the link. Can you copy the abstract to this topic?
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